Rising (3+)
People you follow
send message
follow
followers
Hmmm, it's an interesting topic, and while I'll still probably continue to watch the show, you bring up nothing but excellent points... I had similar expectations, yet when it didn't met them, I suppose I let it slide, yet as soon as you mention things like how the character Haruhi Suzumiya is perceived, I can't help but kinda agree with you on it.
I'd be really interested on hearing about what you thought of Light Yagami in Death Note...
I'd be really interested on hearing about what you thought of Light Yagami in Death Note...
I'm really having a problem understanding what your problem with the show is. First of all it sounds to me like your judging the show based on something it was not trying to be. it's like me saying "Sex and the city" was bad because it wasn't an amazing action movie , despite the fact it never had any intentions of being an action movie.
furthermore your arguments about the labeling of god are kind of culturally ignorant. although i also belong to the train of thought of a christian god, you have to understand that what we and the Japanese call "god" are two very different things. The Japanese *traditionally* believe in numerous gods that are neither omnipotent nor omnipresent.
If you were disappointed in what is IMO a very entertaining series becuase of your own prejudicial views on what it should of been that's fine. However you cant go around saying its a bad series with "wasted potential" and blame the creators for it failing to be something it never wanted or tried to be.
To conclude if the series failed to meet your misguided expectations that's not the series and the creators fault, it's your own fault. You should judge show's based on what they not what they are (which you did a small bit), not what you thought they'd be. (sorry for any spelling and grammar mistakes I'm tired)
furthermore your arguments about the labeling of god are kind of culturally ignorant. although i also belong to the train of thought of a christian god, you have to understand that what we and the Japanese call "god" are two very different things. The Japanese *traditionally* believe in numerous gods that are neither omnipotent nor omnipresent.
If you were disappointed in what is IMO a very entertaining series becuase of your own prejudicial views on what it should of been that's fine. However you cant go around saying its a bad series with "wasted potential" and blame the creators for it failing to be something it never wanted or tried to be.
To conclude if the series failed to meet your misguided expectations that's not the series and the creators fault, it's your own fault. You should judge show's based on what they not what they are (which you did a small bit), not what you thought they'd be. (sorry for any spelling and grammar mistakes I'm tired)
@kindaaloser:
His god complex is justified. Having direct control over the cycle of life does that to you. Just being extremely skilled in a video game genre does not.
His god complex is justified. Having direct control over the cycle of life does that to you. Just being extremely skilled in a video game genre does not.
@damien007:
I happen to take God more seriously than most other users on this site, which is probably why the title is so hard for me to swallow. As for Japan's views on God, this article summed it up for me nicely:
"Japan is a civilization separated from the continent and because the land is small and there are few open fields.
Japan’s people have prospered by efficiently obtaining food as farmers.
There are are many earthquakes and, because of few resources, there are only a few ruins created from large stones.
I believe that the sense of “not wasting” came from utilizing the limited resources.
"In the faith born from within the continent’s culture exists a “God”.
Even though there is a difference between monotheism and polytheism, thinking about the many existing fears, living beyond a vast continent, and harness of nature could have brought forth the “absolute existence”.
"In Japan’s “MOTTAINAI (do not waste)”, this thought was never born, nothing can be wasted, a God dwells in everything, and everything living needs to be appreciated which is where the thought of “multitudinous gods” was born. In Western terms, it could be close to “spirits” dwelling in things.
"Meaning, even if ancient writings in the game have “God” written in it, the way of thinking between Japan and the West are different.
That’s why it’s also difficult to translate.
Once, the priests of Christianity had come across to Japan but were having difficulty being unable to explain the concept of “God”.
"Meaning, there is no harm meant when Japanese games add elements from the beliefs of foreign countries.
And it can’t just end there, so what’s OK and what’s bad needs to be thought out, but there is no such rule existing.
What’s the best is to have the world’s religionist check, but that would not be possible."
I happen to take God more seriously than most other users on this site, which is probably why the title is so hard for me to swallow. As for Japan's views on God, this article summed it up for me nicely:
"Japan is a civilization separated from the continent and because the land is small and there are few open fields.
Japan’s people have prospered by efficiently obtaining food as farmers.
There are are many earthquakes and, because of few resources, there are only a few ruins created from large stones.
I believe that the sense of “not wasting” came from utilizing the limited resources.
"In the faith born from within the continent’s culture exists a “God”.
Even though there is a difference between monotheism and polytheism, thinking about the many existing fears, living beyond a vast continent, and harness of nature could have brought forth the “absolute existence”.
"In Japan’s “MOTTAINAI (do not waste)”, this thought was never born, nothing can be wasted, a God dwells in everything, and everything living needs to be appreciated which is where the thought of “multitudinous gods” was born. In Western terms, it could be close to “spirits” dwelling in things.
"Meaning, even if ancient writings in the game have “God” written in it, the way of thinking between Japan and the West are different.
That’s why it’s also difficult to translate.
Once, the priests of Christianity had come across to Japan but were having difficulty being unable to explain the concept of “God”.
"Meaning, there is no harm meant when Japanese games add elements from the beliefs of foreign countries.
And it can’t just end there, so what’s OK and what’s bad needs to be thought out, but there is no such rule existing.
What’s the best is to have the world’s religionist check, but that would not be possible."
Excel, I'm Christian, but I also took this show in the weird Japanese meaning on god.
Also, I always find his over-enthusiasm in otakudom to be an open mocking to how otaku can be, anyway.
I find this whole article to be more a problem with how you view shows rather than any fault on TWGOK. To have such fully formed prejudices on how the show should be before one even watches the show is a recipe for bad assumptions and betrayed expectations.
Also, I always find his over-enthusiasm in otakudom to be an open mocking to how otaku can be, anyway.
I find this whole article to be more a problem with how you view shows rather than any fault on TWGOK. To have such fully formed prejudices on how the show should be before one even watches the show is a recipe for bad assumptions and betrayed expectations.
Before I read the New Testament, I was convinced it would be an improvement over the Old Testament. Imagine my disappointment when it wasn't what I expected.
Imagine the potential that could have been. Revelations of science and technology and art that could have changed the world and morality. Instead of subverting what we could have expected from a typical religion from the Middle East what we received was yet another erroneously titled rehash that did nothing but introduce an anti-science figure.
Thenceforth, I treat every religion with the default setting of "it is not rational, therefore it sucks."
End satire.
I think I understand what The-Excel means.
Imagine the potential that could have been. Revelations of science and technology and art that could have changed the world and morality. Instead of subverting what we could have expected from a typical religion from the Middle East what we received was yet another erroneously titled rehash that did nothing but introduce an anti-science figure.
Thenceforth, I treat every religion with the default setting of "it is not rational, therefore it sucks."
End satire.
I think I understand what The-Excel means.
@Marlin Clock:
The premise itself is reason enough for me to turn it down. The perceived betrayal of both the presumed premise and the actual premise doesn't help either.
@Rewarp:
You're not the first person to tell me this to my face.
The premise itself is reason enough for me to turn it down. The perceived betrayal of both the presumed premise and the actual premise doesn't help either.
@Rewarp:
You're not the first person to tell me this to my face.
Part of what bothers me is that I keep feeling the title should be "The World Only God Knows," and that the way it exists at present in a bad mis-phrasing based possibly on the creator's familiarity (maybe?) with the phrase "God only knows (what I'd do without you?)"
In that context, the way I'd like to think of it is that we're dealing with the idea of a singular person who plays different "roles" to different people (in this case, using his knowledge to tell each of the women things that will manipulate them toward falling in love), and what kind of person is he really, underneath all his facades? The core of this person that none of the people he meets will ever see in its fullness should be "the world only God knows." But this is Japan here, and if the Christian God exists in a story, chances are decent that at the end you will be fighting him or some representation thereof (blame my RPGing on that, I suppose).
The market is really otaku-centric right now, and a show that served as both entertainment AND an insightful critique of the real shortcomings of trying to equate a dating sim with "real world knowledge/experience" would be pretty hard to come by. I mean, even OreImo has some above-average writing and handling of its concepts, but in essence it's still saying "This is okay; it's okay to like what you like!" Not that I want to see something saying "These things are bad, and you should feel bad for liking them," but just a series that puts the good and bad out on the table and says "You get this, but you also get that" would be really interesting.
While I get the angle you're coming from here, what I can't get behind is the way you take a wild stab at a premise of a show and then get disappointed because it isn't what you dreamt up for it. Scott Pilgrim being about PILGRIMS? Really? We need to at least do some research on what a story is actually about before we can legitimately decry it as being a bait-and-switch. If you bought a book or DVD and the story was largely untrue to what you were expecting based on the back of the box/cover, then I'd say you had a reason to be upset. But you can't just be like "I thought the cereal Lucky Charms would taste like clover and diamonds! What a disappointment it was to find out that it tasted like processed wheat fortified with over 7 essential vitamins and minerals, and also dehydrated marshmallows."
For your general point about "Why isn't this concept as thoughtful as it had the potential to be?", I echo your wish that it was. But I don't think we'll see stuff like that when there's profit to be had in coddling the otaku fanbase.
In that context, the way I'd like to think of it is that we're dealing with the idea of a singular person who plays different "roles" to different people (in this case, using his knowledge to tell each of the women things that will manipulate them toward falling in love), and what kind of person is he really, underneath all his facades? The core of this person that none of the people he meets will ever see in its fullness should be "the world only God knows." But this is Japan here, and if the Christian God exists in a story, chances are decent that at the end you will be fighting him or some representation thereof (blame my RPGing on that, I suppose).
The market is really otaku-centric right now, and a show that served as both entertainment AND an insightful critique of the real shortcomings of trying to equate a dating sim with "real world knowledge/experience" would be pretty hard to come by. I mean, even OreImo has some above-average writing and handling of its concepts, but in essence it's still saying "This is okay; it's okay to like what you like!" Not that I want to see something saying "These things are bad, and you should feel bad for liking them," but just a series that puts the good and bad out on the table and says "You get this, but you also get that" would be really interesting.
While I get the angle you're coming from here, what I can't get behind is the way you take a wild stab at a premise of a show and then get disappointed because it isn't what you dreamt up for it. Scott Pilgrim being about PILGRIMS? Really? We need to at least do some research on what a story is actually about before we can legitimately decry it as being a bait-and-switch. If you bought a book or DVD and the story was largely untrue to what you were expecting based on the back of the box/cover, then I'd say you had a reason to be upset. But you can't just be like "I thought the cereal Lucky Charms would taste like clover and diamonds! What a disappointment it was to find out that it tasted like processed wheat fortified with over 7 essential vitamins and minerals, and also dehydrated marshmallows."
For your general point about "Why isn't this concept as thoughtful as it had the potential to be?", I echo your wish that it was. But I don't think we'll see stuff like that when there's profit to be had in coddling the otaku fanbase.
@ittoujuu:
I'll be the first to admit that judging anything by unrealistic and irrelevant expectations is stupid, but it's all I have. I don't believe I should have to do any research to be able to enjoy something for what it is. If I hear about something and not like what I hear, regardless of what I heard it from or whether it's right, I'm not inclined to pursue it further. In the case of Scott Pilgrim, it was only the title. I didn't know it was based on a graphic novel or that it had anything to do with games because the first people I heard talking about it never mentioned those. The way it was discussed turned me off to it. The real problems start when I instinctively fill in the blanks, like I do in normal problem solving. It's the way my brain is wired and has been since I was young, and it worked so well for me in school that I took it far beyond that. For some reason, the name evoked images of a period piece, so I concluded it was about colonial settlers. It's completely irrational in retrospect, but that's what I came up with. When I'm proven wrong, then I feel left out, but I still can't let go of my first impressions. I don't want to ask around or read more discussion of it because I'll just be even more wrong. When it turns out to be something I would have enjoyed in the first place, the echos that it's something different and better is the final insult. I become determined to hate it forever and no one is happy. I've been planning to write more about this subject, but I won't post it here.
It's not always like this, especially only a few years ago. In 2006, I heard about a drama series called Child's Toy that explored the consequences of teen childbirth and parental abandonment. That didn't sound like something I would enjoy, but I didn't hear of it again until 2007 when I first saw Kodocha and concluded it was about an eleven-year-old brat who uses her celebrity to solve her friend's problems. I did like what I saw, but since the initial prejudices had faded, they didn't cloud my judgment.
I hope I don't come across as a fundamentalist, but the only real problem I have with the topic of God here is that the characters praised like one are nothing like any god I'm familiar with. I love Shin Megami Tensei, even though God is a major villain to be defeated. It paints the Creator as an evil being, but He's still undeniably God. I find it hard to believe that God could manifest as a bully interested only in pursing their own selfish human ambitions, but that so many people think otherwise makes my blood boil. That people think that God could be someone they think is cool offends me, not that they take His name in vain. I'm mad because they seriously think that God would limit Himself with the flaws these characters have.
To be honest, as I wrote in the forums, I never planned on posting this here. I wrote it for my own blog because it was a topic I felt like writing about and I haven't posted anything worth reading on in it in nine months. The idea to copy this here came from my brother, who thought it natural since I posted other articles like this one here before. I could have just posted the bottom image on the forums and left it at that. Now I'm starting to think I should have rewritten this piece before posting it.
In short, it sucks being the minority sometimes.
I'll be the first to admit that judging anything by unrealistic and irrelevant expectations is stupid, but it's all I have. I don't believe I should have to do any research to be able to enjoy something for what it is. If I hear about something and not like what I hear, regardless of what I heard it from or whether it's right, I'm not inclined to pursue it further. In the case of Scott Pilgrim, it was only the title. I didn't know it was based on a graphic novel or that it had anything to do with games because the first people I heard talking about it never mentioned those. The way it was discussed turned me off to it. The real problems start when I instinctively fill in the blanks, like I do in normal problem solving. It's the way my brain is wired and has been since I was young, and it worked so well for me in school that I took it far beyond that. For some reason, the name evoked images of a period piece, so I concluded it was about colonial settlers. It's completely irrational in retrospect, but that's what I came up with. When I'm proven wrong, then I feel left out, but I still can't let go of my first impressions. I don't want to ask around or read more discussion of it because I'll just be even more wrong. When it turns out to be something I would have enjoyed in the first place, the echos that it's something different and better is the final insult. I become determined to hate it forever and no one is happy. I've been planning to write more about this subject, but I won't post it here.
It's not always like this, especially only a few years ago. In 2006, I heard about a drama series called Child's Toy that explored the consequences of teen childbirth and parental abandonment. That didn't sound like something I would enjoy, but I didn't hear of it again until 2007 when I first saw Kodocha and concluded it was about an eleven-year-old brat who uses her celebrity to solve her friend's problems. I did like what I saw, but since the initial prejudices had faded, they didn't cloud my judgment.
I hope I don't come across as a fundamentalist, but the only real problem I have with the topic of God here is that the characters praised like one are nothing like any god I'm familiar with. I love Shin Megami Tensei, even though God is a major villain to be defeated. It paints the Creator as an evil being, but He's still undeniably God. I find it hard to believe that God could manifest as a bully interested only in pursing their own selfish human ambitions, but that so many people think otherwise makes my blood boil. That people think that God could be someone they think is cool offends me, not that they take His name in vain. I'm mad because they seriously think that God would limit Himself with the flaws these characters have.
To be honest, as I wrote in the forums, I never planned on posting this here. I wrote it for my own blog because it was a topic I felt like writing about and I haven't posted anything worth reading on in it in nine months. The idea to copy this here came from my brother, who thought it natural since I posted other articles like this one here before. I could have just posted the bottom image on the forums and left it at that. Now I'm starting to think I should have rewritten this piece before posting it.
In short, it sucks being the minority sometimes.
Hey there, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry for coming off as maybe a bit offensive back there. I was tired, and didn't think it through really.
I respect your opinion though. (But I'd rather not get into a big debate right now...)
I respect your opinion though. (But I'd rather not get into a big debate right now...)
@snake_in_a_box:
I didn't think this through myself. Like a lot of my rants, I write them spur-of-the-moment. Had I waited a day or three to write this, I would have said something to the effect of:
"I don't have a problem with people twisting the idea of God, because those can still make for worthy entertainment or at least interesting reading. Coming up with a completely different one disconnected from all traditional views of Him is self-indulgent. The way it's done here equates to putting a fictional character on a pedestal he or she is not worthy of."
As it stands, my argument just looks self-contradictory.
I didn't think this through myself. Like a lot of my rants, I write them spur-of-the-moment. Had I waited a day or three to write this, I would have said something to the effect of:
"I don't have a problem with people twisting the idea of God, because those can still make for worthy entertainment or at least interesting reading. Coming up with a completely different one disconnected from all traditional views of Him is self-indulgent. The way it's done here equates to putting a fictional character on a pedestal he or she is not worthy of."
As it stands, my argument just looks self-contradictory.
Upon reading this the first time through I was not really sure where you where coming from but after reading the comments I feel like I have an idea. I am still not entirely sure what you where trying to argue but I will respond with my thoughts anyway.
Worth is relative. I find that the use of the name god often means nothing more then the creator of something. In Haruhi she is god because she warped the world around her to fit her "image" in Spice and Wolf Holo is considered a god because she brings the harvest. Many real world religions have gods that follow the same logic. But there are exceptions such as Greek and Roman gods where they are much closer to being human than what many religions call a god or gods today.
I expect The "god" that Keima was modeled after would be one like the Greek god Ares. At the very least that was my first thought on the issue watching the show.
As for culture well different culture's have different values including Otaku and Gamers as we often seclude ourselves in our own world with people who think the same. Sub cultures are everywhere and there are many things that would instantly make sense to you or I that I could repeat at the dinner table and no one would understand. While I also expected this show to be in the same vein as Welcome to the NHK I can't say I have been disappointed that it was something different. It it what it is after all and more or less makes sense to me.
I do not think that all Otaku or gamers view themselves as pathetic. Even some of those who are or tend to be socially reclusive. It's not always caused by panic or an inability to cope with people. Some personality's and situations just work out that way. I tend to be very reclusive myself so I understand but my self worth is not lowered because of it.
Keima goes on a spiel about idols in episode 5. I think you would find it interesting. Talking about how real world idols age / have real world love lives etc etc and how game idols are eternal. It's an interesting perspective that made sense to me at least. I personally think that TWGOK is going to go somewhere interesting. While its amusing me for now I am not entirely sure I will agree with the message it is trying to spread but there is one thing that comes to mind.
Kemia repeatedly refers to "real life" as a crappy game. Where the flags are messed up and the structure makes no sense. So far the contrast that has been shown between the girls of his games and "real life" is that while the real life girls have more stuff going on and are initially harder to understand they are far more simple in the end. Or perhaps more accurately there ability to be understood and loved is the same.
I am not entirely sure what direction the show will take and so writing all this now is somewhat based off speculation. But if it goes the way I think it is hinting it will be an interesting show and while it initially threw me off I think that the title has done a good job of conveying what to expect in coming episodes.
Worth is relative. I find that the use of the name god often means nothing more then the creator of something. In Haruhi she is god because she warped the world around her to fit her "image" in Spice and Wolf Holo is considered a god because she brings the harvest. Many real world religions have gods that follow the same logic. But there are exceptions such as Greek and Roman gods where they are much closer to being human than what many religions call a god or gods today.
I expect The "god" that Keima was modeled after would be one like the Greek god Ares. At the very least that was my first thought on the issue watching the show.
As for culture well different culture's have different values including Otaku and Gamers as we often seclude ourselves in our own world with people who think the same. Sub cultures are everywhere and there are many things that would instantly make sense to you or I that I could repeat at the dinner table and no one would understand. While I also expected this show to be in the same vein as Welcome to the NHK I can't say I have been disappointed that it was something different. It it what it is after all and more or less makes sense to me.
I do not think that all Otaku or gamers view themselves as pathetic. Even some of those who are or tend to be socially reclusive. It's not always caused by panic or an inability to cope with people. Some personality's and situations just work out that way. I tend to be very reclusive myself so I understand but my self worth is not lowered because of it.
Keima goes on a spiel about idols in episode 5. I think you would find it interesting. Talking about how real world idols age / have real world love lives etc etc and how game idols are eternal. It's an interesting perspective that made sense to me at least. I personally think that TWGOK is going to go somewhere interesting. While its amusing me for now I am not entirely sure I will agree with the message it is trying to spread but there is one thing that comes to mind.
Kemia repeatedly refers to "real life" as a crappy game. Where the flags are messed up and the structure makes no sense. So far the contrast that has been shown between the girls of his games and "real life" is that while the real life girls have more stuff going on and are initially harder to understand they are far more simple in the end. Or perhaps more accurately there ability to be understood and loved is the same.
I am not entirely sure what direction the show will take and so writing all this now is somewhat based off speculation. But if it goes the way I think it is hinting it will be an interesting show and while it initially threw me off I think that the title has done a good job of conveying what to expect in coming episodes.
