Fansubs are the Great Satan, along with rock n roll, videogames, and women's rights.

Oh boy. Another in the weekly renewed debate of Fansubs vs. Industry.

Secondly, although I understand the point you're trying to get at, even through adapting you can only do so much. Looking at their sales figures over there compared to the number of UK based IP torrent sites, I'd say sometimes you just have to start taking legal action. To put it in a nerdy RTS metaphor, even if they had all techs unlocked it still wouldn't help the fact that they've only got one vespian geyser and two mineral blocks left.

ZERG RUSH

Yeah!

How dare they be upset at the free distribution of there licenses!

What nerve!

ADV only has the licenses for some countries.
Some times other EU countries get there anime quicker than the US and UK.
Ex:
I saw Martian Successor Nadesico: Prince of Darkness on TV in 2000 has a rerun.
ADV only got his act together to publish the movie in 2003.

Maybe if the markup over there weren't so astonishing, this wouldn't be as big a problem.

I would love to buy more anime but I refuse to pay the prices they charge for them. They should just stop with individual releases and do a season boxset for a reasonable price at the start. I would buy more if they did that.

I only download fansubs of shows that I can't get anymore.

Some anime wouldnt be as popular here if it weren't for fansubs. We wouldn't know of such shows as Haruhi Suzumiya or Gurren Lagann and they probably have wasted their time bringing crap from Japan that people wont even care about.

Simple... STOP RELEASING DVDS WITH ONLY THREE OR FOUR EPISODES FOR $30!

Seriously, you can get entire seasons for $30 yet they want me to buy 10 separate dvds?

I dunno about you guys, but I think the picture in the article described it better than the actual article did.

BAH!
Neo isn't a terrible magazine, but really it's one of the only ones we have...

[quote]Simple... STOP RELEASING DVDS WITH ONLY THREE OR FOUR EPISODES FOR $30!

Seriously, you can get entire seasons for $30 yet they want me to buy 10 separate dvds?[/quote]

Yes, cause that is just so damn expensive...

Oh wait.......how about every other distributor follow Bandai's thought-process and use the Japanese distribution system of 1-2 episodes per disc for $45? Yea, that sounds more reasonable.

As far as I am concerned, Digisubs, not fansubs, are what is killing companies like ADV. R1 rippers, people who balk on these companies because they have dubs, and the high amount of people who'd much rather get things for free than pay any amount for them are the cause.

The point Ledford is trying to get across is that no matter how far ADV tries to accommodate their consumer base that there will still be more people who will steal their products from them. ADV started their own streaming service, for free, to the complaints of many because it shows their dubbed content (more than the subbed), more companies are following suit and even pushing into the so coveted digital distro system for a fairly decent price only to be shut down by people who'd much rather steal it.

Yes, fansubs help anime, digisubs is ultimately killing it. I'm sure most of us with a few braincells can make the distinction between the two systems and their goals.

ADV is a business; and as one they need to get their act together. ADV needs to study their markets, people(s) and many other things. If ADV desires to survive in their market they must change. If they do not change to 'meet the needs' then someone else will.

I never thought about that DrkCntry...

It does make sense though... fansubs require a group of fans to actively translate a series and usually largely in advance of a series being licensed locally. Plus they ask that people stop distribution when it does get licensed. Any lazy nut with the right conversion tools though could rip a DVD into a digisub though...and I wish that these companies would (could?) start taking action against them already.


I honestly don't think it's really ADV's fault here at all. They've made several efforts to keep things cheap and are licensing fairly well known shows, as for the price issue, well, since these don't exactly have TV runs here in the US sometimes you HAVE to take it 4 episodes at a time at $20-25 for the company to be able to afford it. It'd take a huge amount of pre-acquired capital to pull off dubbing an entire 26 episode show in one sweep and selling it at the economy box prices right off the bat. That's about as stupid for them and their financial well-being as Bandai Visual's Region 2 price idea is for us! So stop complaining about prices already when there's other issues.

I don't think this is a problem for a single company or a single country. This shit's global.
The industry also needs to find a working solution to both stay alive and diminish the negative impact of fansubs. Content distribution methods and rewards are changing, and unless they stay ahead of the changes, or at least current with them, things might not end up so good.
But, it's the corporate talk to blame fansubs. And they're partly right, just as they're partly wrong. There are no sides that hold all the answers, no sides that are always right. There will never be a solution that satisfies all solutions, but hopefully there will be one that leaves enough people in all camps satisfied enough.

And actually their CEO never does use the term fansubs, he says 'illegal file sharing'. Now, if you want to go into that whole age old debate over the questionable legality of fansubs, I'll leave you all to do that. Free downloadable DVD rips of shows in our region are CLEARLY illegal though. So don't jump the gun saying ADV is blaming it all on fansubs.

@Heero Yui

I was gonna keep my trap shut concerning this post, but you went too far Heero Yui. I respect you for your intense fandom and your belief that fansubs are evil. My arguments have never been about legality of fansubs which in all commonsense is illegal no ifs ands or but's and no matter how mess up the pricing is in the North America downloading fansubs is wrong. You see I too can think logically.

The problem here Heero Yui, and people like you is that you believe legal actions, suing the pants off people is the best way to get your money. RIAA subscribes to your type of mentality and lets see what it got them....mmmm...temporary reduction of music file sharing and than a resurgence worst than ever before.

The only reason it has gotten any worst is because of the creation of a legal digital distribution service we call itunes (unfortunately draconic in their DRM, but at least the service exist). It wasn't freak'n lawsuits that made people go for itunes or services like it. People use it for ease of use, large selection of genres and affordable pricing.

Hmmm me thinks some actual thinking needs to go on with the Anime US distributers.

The problem here Heero is that honestly you're an obsessed fan, hey i'm not bashing you, i'm a crazy ass fan too, but of video games though. I push people to buy games all the time especially if its from a small time publisher. I know where you are coming from, but suing the pants of your supposed customers is bad PR.

Hey I've heard the argument that those who download anime aren't your customers so our whining shouldn't matter and they shouldn't listen to what we want. Yet, all companies see us as potential customers if they didn't they wouldn't be worried about us donwloading their stuff. Technically if we don't buy their product and we don't matter then why do they care so much about the supposedly lost profits of anime downloading. Now I know this makes no sense because we're still stealing, but issue here is that how does this help them sell more anime.

You see their goal is to get people who download anime to buy their stuff simple as that. This is why they get their panties in a bunch when we download their intellectual property. So if they want to us buy, they have to start making changes and start listening to what we want.

Now they have the total right to sue us and not listen to our pleas and internet hate mongering. They can do that for sure and I won't hold it against them if they do, which is what they're partly doing now. But they're going to get hurt in the process and they are getting badly hurt. You see companies in a capitalistic society exist to supply services and products to the consumer. The consumer does not exist to buy a companies product; if you believe that you may want to retake your economics courses from college.

Look I totally agree fansubs are ILLEGAL and we can only blame ourselves if we get our asses sued for 200 billion dollars, but aside from hundreds of anime geeks filing bankruptcy, what will they gain from this. Bad PR, loss of consumer loyalty, maybe a little bump in the profits just enough to survive another financial quarter until they can pay more lawyers to scare more people to buy their product.

Honestly what is it that you people want. Not everyone has your fervor for anime and anime related products. Face it, anime isn't mainstream (aside from saturday morning cartoon shit). Do not believe for one minute your boss, your girlfriend, your parents, or the regular housewife with 2.5 kids and giant Chevy Suburban having erotic yaoi dreams of Naruto and Sasauke.

I NEVER SAID FANSUBS WERE BAD!!! oh my f.....

Wow. You are the ignorant one. All I said was I was going to stay out of that argument since it's a grey area.

Heck, since apparently you're unable to read an entire friggin post or you wouldn't have bothered wasting all that space I'll sum up the rest of what I'm about to say right here.

FANsubs are ok, they have a provable positive influence. DIGIsubs are the bad ones and should have the man on their ass. If you don't know the difference then let me tell you, fansubs are things that you can download straight from places like animesuki. Digisubs are things like ISO image rips of the very DVDs themselves that companies like ADV and Funimation produce. They have NO positive influence WHATSOEVER on the industry and there is no question that they are illegal, whereas alot of fansubs usually fall in the non-licensed gray area.

And for god's sake, don't say the same darn thing in EIGHT paragraphs when ONE will suffice.

I honestly don't care what measures they take. And about the only thing you got right in your banter was the fact that they do have a right to sue people that do it. But for gosh sake, I doubt they care about the people that are promoting shows they don't own especially since it's free ads for them if they choose to license it. It's the people that are doing the equivalent of bootlegging their very own work that they're primarily after. People like you though assume they're after ALL of you.

Lastly, I'll be blunt.

THEY ARENT WRONG AND THEY HAVE NO MORAL REASON TO CHANGE. If you were to smoke marijuana and the cops busted your ass, the judge would laugh his ass off at you if you told him that your reasons were because the cigarette industry chose not to cater to your tastes.

FOR GOSH SAKE STOP ACTING LIKE A SPOILED KID, TAKE AN ECON CLASS OR TWO, AND THEN READ ALL OF WHAT PEOPLE SAY BEFORE YOU PULL UP YOUR KEYBOARD.

Byrc: I'm trying desperately to figure out where you're going with your comments...all I can actually gather is that you're trying to state that because ADV is trying to protect it's investments in the only way that it can is somehow a wrong direction. Comparing the actions of ADV to that of RIAA is, well, way off base to say the least. RIAA is a collection of suits that have a source of income off other aspects of a recording artists' income that it doesn't solely rely on CD sales to make a profit. ADV, on the other hand, is heavily dependent on DVD sales and, on a whole, requires all of the revenue from those sales to stay afloat, let alone make a profit. This is why so many people are pointing fingers at both RIAA and MPAA simply because their form of income is, well, infinite where-as ADV's (and pretty much all of the other distributors) has a finite source.

RIAA doesn't have to pay out of pocket to distribute their member's goods, where-as ADV (you know what, I will just use anime distributors from now on) has to do so to obtain licenses to redistribute within their markets. Anime distributors are somewhat bound to their sources of revenue simply because that is their only actual source. In ADV's case, there are other sources but they are nowhere near the capital level that their anime distribution has.

I know for a fact ADV would much rather not alienate their fanbase by issuing C&Ds and tossing out lawsuits, but the cold hard truth of the matter is that they cannot do so and be expected to stick around. They have to find a balance system and find one that still allows them to profit from it.

Digital distribution is still a very, very, VERY dangerous realm for smaller companies, and face it, most of the anime distributors out there only rate as small compared to that of, say, Fox or Sony. ADV has stated that it would like to forgo the whole DRM debacle by doing a digital system that is both secure and fully accessible to everyone within their licensing region...which lead them to their streaming service. I'm sure that if other aspects go well, such as Amazon's Unbox service, that they will look into giving it a shot...

What people need to remember is something simple...to do all of these nifty things that the fans desire (IE digital distro, streaming episodes, etc) it requires up-front capital to pay for, and to have this it requires people to buy their products. The ease of obtaining digisubs, and fansubs, is making this a very difficult time for smaller companies to obtain an income to be competitive and push forward with newer business models. ADV is trying and it is taking the steps that it can take, and even with them doing it they are still being demonized over those steps.

The problem is you can't compete with free. Once a good becomes a quasi-public good, it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle, and anime is viewed by the fans as a quasi-public good, I mean, it's shown in Japan on broadcast TV (I know not all of it is, but that's the assumption)

um.... so what. Look where the hell do you guys get that I demand my shit for free. What I'm saying is that you just because you guys are willing to pay for the product you expect everybody else to have that form of product loyalty. Not all us of either A have the money or B care enough about anime to buy it. Does that justify downloading illegally? No of course not. Why do i have to repeat myself? It's because you guys keep confusing my attitude toward the subject as a form of self-entitlement. I don't expect anything from these companies. My whole point is summarized in this paragraph:

"Look I totally agree fansubs are ILLEGAL and we can only blame ourselves if we get our asses sued for 200 billion dollars, but aside from hundreds of anime geeks filing bankruptcy, what will they gain from this. Bad PR, loss of consumer loyalty, maybe a little bump in the profits just enough to survive another financial quarter until they can pay more lawyers to scare more people to buy their product."

What you guys don't understand is that if a company doesn't have the capital to fund an infrastructure that promotes consumer growth, then don't deserve to be in the industry. I understand if your coming from a crazy otaku fan perspective that wants to spread anime around world as if its a form world peace. But seriously, these companies don't need to exist nor are they entitled stay profitable.

Let me be blunt as I can be:

Legally and ethically they're entitled to be paid for their product and services, but there is nothing in the law that states a company has the right to stay profitable nor raise enough capital for expansion/growth.

My perspective is not of an anime fan who wants legal domestic releases of anime. My perspective is that of someone who says why should there be? This maybe the reason as to the confusion. I only write this up because I want fans to think about this issue logically and less from a fans perspective.

I'll end with this. If the majority of your target demographic doesn't want to pay for anime (the product you provide) and the ones who do aren't enough to keep you afloat financially; what do you think will happen? What will you do? Yeah it's unfair and yes the market for anime sucks in America because of many reasons including fansubs, but thats the state of the industry. Either you learn to survive in that type of market or you don't. Simple as that. I have no idea why you guys don't get that.

So, in other words Byrc you're trying to say that a company that doesn't have the infrastructure to expand to other areas deserves to go under, even if said company is having their products stolen directly from them and basically ending any form of income they have?

I really do love reading your last paragraph though, especially the part about a company shouldn't exist if people are prone to stealing their products. Must be one hell of a crackerjack world you live in to believe in that business model.

Oh, and it's not a 'crazy otaku perspective', it's a perspective of people who understand the whole ideal of a consumer-driven market.

Your perspective is nothing more than someone who desires product for free, or at least that is how everything that you have written shows.

Oddly enough thats how it is. Many different industries have to survive and endure such situations not just the anime industry.

BTW, I never said it shouldn't exist. Where the hell do you get that? I said they won't exist. What you guys are implying is that any type of industry has to be profitable just because they exist.

Does what I say seem harsh, well it is. I'm sorry, but thats how the business world works. It's cut-throat. Many different industries have to learn to adapt and survive and in many situations their downfall is usually unfair from their perspective.

Wow, congratulations on committing argumentative sepuku byrc at at the same time as making an a-- of yourself!

If you haven't noticed I already get my shit for free, so what ADV does or not do matters nothing to me. What bothers me is the people who assume Anime has to exist in a legal domestic form, only because they want it to.

how so? All i've written down is logical.

I believe downloading anime without paying is illegal.

Anime companies are not legally entitled to have people buy their product.

The market environment for domestic anime is tough and profitably deficient in its current form.

What you state isn't harsh, byrc, it's actually pretty, well, unintelligent.

For a company to exist, there needs to be a form of income for it to cover costs, when that isn't possible, the company generally will fold. There's no chance to adapt or survive if they cannot keep a foothold. In other words, a company can run in the red for only so long before said company has to close up shop. What this means for ADV and other distributors is that the more people whom don't buy their goods, the less of a chance there is for them to be able to branch out into other ventures to accommodate the technology of today.

We understand that you like stealing your luxury goods, but that doesn't change the fact that for these luxury goods to continue to exist that there needs to be a profitable venture to support it, and unless you are buying R2J DVDs all you are doing is expediting the demise of the entire industry of this luxury good...seeing as you plainly state you obtain your anime for free anyways.

Anime doesn't have to be a legal domestic good any more than a car does, but there are wants and needs of each that are apparent in a consumer-market. Luxury goods are exactly that, a luxury and not a right...but those luxuries generally come at a cost that, if done right, should be slightly above cost of that to the distributing company...which, sans a couple anomalies, is how things happen in the anime distribution net.

[quote]Anime companies are not legally entitled to have people buy their product.
[/quote]

Again, what sort of odd world do you live in that you believe that what you state here is logical?

They are legally entitled to have people buy their products if said people want their products...what you state is probably one of the most illogical phrases I've read in a long time.

Again why should I care if these luxuries exist. Why should anyone? The only people who do are the ones who are already invested into these luxuries. Meaning people like you. That's why you care if the domestic anime industry folds. Thats why you want people to buy into it. so you can enjoy your anime. Well thats fine. Nothing wrong with that. Yet that doesn't mean they have to exist.

Whether I want more anime produced is not the issue at hand. The issue is whether these domestic release companies are making sound financial decisions or even having sound market expectations. The state of the industry is shaky at best. People assume way too much. They think if everyone stop downloading all their problems would be fixed. Hey maybe it would fix it all. But guess what, they've yet to figure out how to stop it. So what should they do?

Really give me answer because supposedly i'm too unintelligent to understand the concept of people not buying my shit because they dont' want to.

Hahahahhaa, wow.

Byrc you're logic is so clearly flawed, I find it amusing. Seriously.

In fact, DrkCntry, I'd like to say you've done a far superior job in explaining things more clearly to everyone than I could've done under these circumstances.
It's pretty evident that byrc is going to try to keep himself in ignorant denial till the end of time about how real-world businesses work.

Anyone with a clear head that bothers to read fully the statements presented I think will come to the right conclusion.

And just to give everyone a nice laugh, I think that EVERYONE here will find this funny: http://www.xkcd.com/386/

See that's where you're messed up...people want anime, that's a genuinely obvious fact. In this group of people is a subsect that doesn't feel they need to pay for the goods despite there is an inherent cost to them. This is where it appears you are, you feel that you shouldn't have to pay for it, and hey, that's your prerogative and you accept the illegality of it...the problem arises from your statements in that it appears you feel that because you steal your anime for free that companies that charge for it should basically go belly-up.

I'm sure you'll come back and repeat everything about how you know it's illegal, how this and that, basically rehashing everything you've said in this whole post only for us to continue scratching our heads trying to wrap around this odd concept of a free market in which there are no costs what-so-ever...and when we do figure it out, we would love to live in that utopia.

Um.. because they are NOT legally entitled to have people buy their product. If I make a figurine with straws and put it up on ebay and no one buys it for minimum price i'm asking for, can I go to the government and tell them that I demand people to buy it just because I made it. Now I can sue someone who copied my copyrighted figurine and sold it on ebay thats completely protected by law. But I can't make someone buy my product just because I put it for sale.

I AGREE there are costs thats why I keep saying companies fail all the time because they can't cover it. Yet it is none of my concern whether or not the company makes enough to cover costs.

You keep thinking that i believe companies can do whatever they want not matter the costs. Where the hell did you get that from?

I steal anime, so what? Why would I want companies to go belly up? You're the one that makes no logical sense and twist what I say. Companies like ADV UK failed because they were unable to handle the complexity and fragility of the market. Is it unfair because of large number people stealing their stuff? Sure it is unfair. Where the hell you got the idea life was fair? In a perfect world everyone would buy whatever you have for sale, but thats not how it works. Do I add to the problem because I steal? Sure, but somehow anime companies are entitled to exist only because some otakus want their anime even with the understanding that such expectations would lead the company to financial ruins because their isn't a market to support such large number of releases.

Let me put it this way. I don't want to pay for food. I don't want to pay for dual 8800GTX SLI x4 graphics cards. I don't want to have to pay for living expenses (do you even know what those are?). And I certainly don't want to pay $75 for shipping and handling on something that cost barely double that!!

You know why people do though? because that's how capitalism works. People PAY for things that they want. Or else they get ARRESTED for stealing them. That's most of the simple logic DrkCntry and I are talking about. And on that note, I'm gonna call it a night. You can keep rambling on, but I think your profile picture says it best - "newb".

[quote]Um.. because they are NOT legally entitled to have people buy their product. If I make a figurine with straws and put it up on ebay and no one buys it for minimum price i'm asking for, can I go to the government and tell them that I demand people to buy it just because I made it. Now I can sue someone who copied my copyrighted figurine and sold it on ebay thats completely protected by law. But I can't make someone buy my product just because I put it for sale.[/quote]

Uh, please do not tell me you're trying to call yourself logical because you compare selling on eBay to that of a commercial product...if so, this has got to be the funniest comparison I've read in some time, and boy have I read some doozies over the years.

Now, if you became a commercial entity (business license and all) and then proceed to desire to create a market for your goods, your product becomes popular and people do buy it. Would you then state the same thing as you did above when someone (or in many cases, groups of people) take your product and reproduce said product for free, thus flooding the area with your product and pulling revenue from you towards those bootlegged copies. How about this...your customers desire you to increase capacity of your product by taking advantage of a new shipping system, but to do so you need to pay the postal service a flat fee of $500/yr to use such a service. Now, knowing that you are basically bleeding out your income through these people that are stealing and reproducing your goods to give away, would you be able to accommodate your customer base with their wishes in a better way to obtain your product? On top of this, you find that your supplier of manufacturing sources is increasing costs due to higher demand. How long do you think your little business would last?

The one thing you have stated that is wholly true is that true business is a cut-throat and unfair world, the problem with your understanding of it is that it's not competition that's being unfair and cut-throat, but the consumers.

Um exactly what does that have to do with anything I wrote. If anything I succinctly iterated how the capitalist market works. People buy what they want or need. Companies try their best to sell to people who haven't bought their stuff yet. Companies who can't do it fail to expand and cover growth costs, then disappear. I'm in no way justifying stealing, but I am justifying the right NOT TO BUY a product. You are confusing people's action of not buying as stealing.

I understand you want the anime industry to flourish, but demanding the same fervor in others who have no interest is ridiculous. If you stop downloading all together there will still be people not buying anime. You know what you're type will say when a company falls under? You'll start say that the blame goes to those who aren't into anime and if only they knew how great anime was, then such and such company wouldn't have to go away. The bitch moaning will never stop. You honestly don't care about about the actual issues the anime industry is facing. All you care about is getting your anime and logic be damned. Let's not actually delve into the real problem instead just blame on those who don't have your interest in buying a luxury product.

(last comment was for heero no you drkcntry)

Yes the consumer is unfair. Thats how the it is with every industry. Competitors and consumers are an issue. You honestly think that companies make decisions without putting the consumer in mind. Companies spend billions of dollars figuring out what the consumer wants. Some industries have more control over their consumers and in others the consumers have the control. Every industry is different, but the consumer is always a factor when comes to selling services and products.

I understand it's unfair and I understand you might not like it, but that is how it is. Asking consumers to have understanding and compassion is out of the question. I guess you can ask, but it won't help you.

I'm not confusing between the action of not buying as stealing...you're confusing the action of stealing *instead* of buying.

Everyone has the right to not buy a product, but in this case (along with you), there are people still obtaining the product..this is where the companies have the right, and actually are required to, pursue legal retribution of such an act.

This is not an otaku love for anime, nor is it a desire to see a specific industry flourish. This is stating the facts that when you steal something it means you want such an item but do not wish to pay for it, this is either through desire to not pay or inability to pay...both of which aren't exactly relevant at the moment.

Yes, if people stop downloading there will be people still not buying anime...but if those people that did download it wanted their anime and obtained it legally then financial issues wouldn't be at the levels they are now. I honestly cannot fathom how you can sit there and say that "if people stop downloading all together there will still be people not buying anime" and actually expect anyone to take you seriously, especially when we're talking about people whom are actively desiring the product.

In other words, despite my better sense, I'm just going to call you ignorant and be done with it...because it's obvious that whatever I, or basically anyone with business experience, will say only comes back to being some "otaku desire to keep the anime industry going" with your "people won't buy it if they don't want it" retorts, which ironically was never the issue here despite your incessant little tirade.

Okay, to heck with it, I'm tossing courtesy to the curb since this has gone on far too long.

Byrc, we have never ONCE said ANTYHING about freakin fervor for anime, so take that lameass excuse you keep using as a cover and shove it already.

Asking for people to actually pay for something they want to have when they're legally required to by law is how the world works! It has nothing to do with anime even, so cut the damn crap already! If you don't want to pay for it, then YOU DONT PAY FOR IT AND YOU DONT RECIEVE IT.

Just because a candy bar CAN be stolen from a convenience store doesn't mean the store clerk is attacking his "customer base" when the cops catch you for being a THEIF.

And if you supposedly aren't justifying stealing then just SHUT UP ALREADY SINCE WE'VE BEEN TELLING YOU THIS WHOLE D--- TIME THAT ITS YOUR CHOICE TO EITHER PAY FOR IT OR NOT!!!

For gosh sake byrc, READ, GET A CLUE, and THINK before you speak.

The way I see it, all you guys ever state is that this all the consumers fault and if only they bought what you like, life would be grand. That's all you guys write about. Whine whine whine, about how people don't buy anime. Not buying or stealing it doesn't matter. They don't get their money either way. It's just easier for you to blame those who download anime. How about actually looking at the industry from a real logical perspective. Large majority of people are not interested in buying anime. Have it ever crossed your mind that people just don't want to pay for it. People don't pay for lots of stuff. Why don't you fucking whine about why people don't go to movie theater as much. It's the same thing. Why don't you whine about how people skip commercials on their Tivos and therefore hurting ad revenue sales for tv networks. You know why you don't? Probably because it doesn't matter much to you. You whine because you want more anime in america. Oh god forbid people don't buy anime, who knows how you can live without the domestic release of Kannon. You actually don't care about the real problems this industry is facing. The way we distribute video entertainment is changing and is causing huge financial hardships to many different companies in all the spectrum of entertainment. Many don't know what to do anymore because the paradigm has shifted. A lot the power they use to have has no shifted to the consumer. This is a problem that doesn't only effect anime. It effects everything. The problem here is that anime in america has weak foundation is this drastic move to change has caused a lot fo financial hardaches. I feel sorry for them but they are aren't only ones looking for steady footing.

Uh, byrc...it is the consumers fault if a company goes belly-up because they (the consumers) desire their products but steal them instead of pay for them. I know for a fact that I've plainly stated that several times in several different replies.

You have made several comparisons over the course of this conversation, all of which have no bearing on the effects we're discussing here. Movie companies, commercial advertisements, etc all have multiple avenues of income to support it, therefor comparisons between that and anime distribution companies is moot, at best.

People are wanting domestic releases of anime, again something else I've stated and is a fact. The desire is there and so is the fact that people are getting their domestically released anime, the problem is, more and more of these people are not doing so by paying for it.

I couldn't care less about other commercial industries whenever I'm talking about a specific one, so to attempt to broaden the supposed view of this topic is not going to get you very far in my opinion. If we're discussing the anime industry, we're going to be focusing on the anime industry...not the movie or music industries.

The reasons why places like ADV find it easy to blame people whom are downloading their products is, well, because it's obviously happening on a grand enough scale to affect their bottom-lines and their ability to sustain income.

If you want to discuss logic, might I suggest employing it for yourself?

Oh my word....

if anyone on earth bothers reading to this point, here's a hint:

the user you see here named 'byrc' is what we here on the internet like to call a flamer. A flamer is someone who argues about topics they know either little to nothing about or they make up information including their opponents speaking as they go, purely for their own amusement.

Therefore, instead of wasting any more time arguing with a pile of horses---, I'm going to go do something constructive like read Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge by Edward O. Wilson.

Other things you could do instead of waste time fighting filibusters here is check out the Japanator IRC channel where most of the cool people here on Japanator get together and talk about useful things and actually have constructive logical arguments.

Also reader, by reading this far:

My only argument is that downloaders aren't the only ones to blame. All I hear is that legal action has to be taken against these evil men. That is all. No on actually ever stops for second and ask why the hell are people downloading instead of buying anime. If they do, all they say is that the consumer is bunch of ingrates who want everything for free. It never crosses their mind anime just doesn't sell well in America or not to standards or level that is needed to keep a particular infrastructure intact.

No one just says hey maybe ADV licensed too many shows that it couldn't afford. Maybe they didn't think things through enough and maybe overestimated the number of people who are actually interested in buying the dvds. They know downloading exists. They know the financial figures. They have some sort of sales prediction system in place (not perfect, but it's an invaluable asset). Who's fault is it? The consumer because they decided not buy the product? It doesn't matter that they spent fucking 1 week keeping their torrent client on to download the complete series of Higurashi. They decided not to buy it. Shouldn't these companes have some sort of accountability.

Of course not. According to you self-righteous fans it's all the stupid downloading guys fault. All your blame is on them without actually looking at origin of the problem. I would have no problem is ADV steps up on their C&D letters and actually take people court, but what will they gain from this? You know why they have forced the issue? Because of 2 reasons. Too god damn expensive and they know it will be a futile act.

I know more about economics and market system than you think. I know they need people to buy their anime, but seriously should they be accountable for own mismanagement of their resources. They know what to expect from this market. This didn't happen overnight. Something has to change, but according to you change isn't necessary nor possible. If you think so then you should say good by to your precious anime industry because the nature free market is quick unpredictable change.

I'm not in the mood to be the bad guy. Who's ready for some Special Olympics macro action?

Actually, to wrap up this entire article, I just want to say a nice quote from Happy Gilmore that sums it up quite well:

"Mr. [byrc], what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

Oops, it was from Billy Madison, my bad.

@DrkCntry
"Oh, and it's not a 'crazy otaku perspective', it's a perspective of people who understand the whole ideal of a consumer-driven market."

I understand that you think you are more knowledgeable than anyone else here, so you can stop trying to sound superior now.

If you understand the "whole ideal of a consumer-driven market", then you'd realize piracy is a direct result of that. When people directly tell you they would happily buy the series at a reasonable price, you seem to only contradict that with "no they won't."

You're being presumption and ignorant. I buy dozens of TV series every year, but rarely anime. I can get an entire season of the Simpsons for $20-30, and the entire Planet Earth series for $40; but for legitimate anime I'd have to pay hundreds of dollars.

That's absurd. And, as a consumer, I will pursue other methods for purchasing my anime. If some greedy company dies as a result of their own stupidity and lack of understanding of the market, I couldn't fucking care less.

@byrc

I'm glad everyone here isn't amazingly ignorant.

The amusing thing is there isn't one of these pretentious jackasses who hasn't downloaded an unlicensed anime, or watched an AMV that uses unlicensed video and music. Get off your high horses and stop crying for companies that don't know how to utilize the market they chose.

"Uh, byrc...it is the consumers fault if a company goes belly-up because they (the consumers) desire their products but steal them instead of pay for them."

Lol. You are amazingly obstinate. I assume you work for an anime distributor or the recording industry. It's always the consumers fault!

Also, digital piracy is not "stealing". There is no material loss of goods, so using the term "stealing" is deliberately deceptive and inaccurate. These are luxury goods, which would have likely not been purchased at all if not downloaded.

I would have never been introduced to anime, or purchased a single series in my life if not for digital piracy. The online fans that supposedly are destroying it, in fact created it. Now some failed company with too many licenses and not enough market savvy is whining because no one wants to buy their over-priced goods.

[quote]"Uh, byrc...it is the consumers fault if a company goes belly-up because they (the consumers) desire their products but steal them instead of pay for them."

Lol. You are amazingly obstinate. I assume you work for an anime distributor or the recording industry. It's always the consumers fault!

Also, digital piracy is not "stealing". There is no material loss of goods, so using the term "stealing" is deliberately deceptive and inaccurate. These are luxury goods, which would have likely not been purchased at all if not downloaded.

I would have never been introduced to anime, or purchased a single series in my life if not for digital piracy. The online fans that supposedly are destroying it, in fact created it. Now some failed company with too many licenses and not enough market savvy is whining because no one wants to buy their over-priced goods.[/quote]

I work for neither, I however do work in an industry that does work in digital distribution methodology. Besides, when it sounds like a duck...

Digital piracy is not stealing? The accepted definition of piracy is taking of something that doesn't rightly fully belong to you...in this case, a digital copy of a product that you have not paid for. The whole scapegoat of "not being a customer anyways" is asinine, as even if you are not going to purchase the product you are still obtaining it in a means that is within a violation of the law, hence piracy.

And you might want to get off the high horse about your so-called "introduction through piracy" bit, as it wasn't digisubbers who created the fandom, and can easily be attributed with the current downtrend of it. For example, fansubbers are groups of people whom translated anime raws onto VHS tapes and then through pretty small circles distributed them. Now, knowing things like this, how many of these fansubbers could've pushed their wares out to millions of people instantaneously?

Over-priced? Again your claims are half-assed at best. Were they in-line with the costs of similarly produced and distributed goods, yes. Were they higher than that of what people are accustomed to buying on DVDs, such as TV shows and movies, yes, however anime is not in the same distinction as those two are and higher prices are expected...however, on average, $20/volume is pretty low considering the content. And comparing it to the 5600-7500 yen prices for the same DVDs with fewer episodes (generally 2 on a disc) would probably put a damper on any claims that the domestically released DVDs from ADV are 'more expensive'.

Oh, and no, I have zero AMVs and the only MP3s I have on my computers are personally ripped and/or legally digital downloaded copies, so again, your assumptions are pretty far out there. And yes, I do have a few digisubbed anime, however note that I am also an avid purchaser of R2J DVDs (collection currently is over 150 full series/movies), which is done for shows that aren't domestically licensed that I have downloaded, something I can safely say that most people who deal with digisubs don't do...so I would state that you might want to be very careful where you toss those assumptions, as they may just be tossed back into your face.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

Are you so desperate byrc that you have to create a clone account just to get someont to agree with you???

I can't help but laugh my ass off at you!