Yeah, this was really messed up in my opinion. I never even knew about The Lost Girls. I hope no one else has to deal with this, especially since it wasn't even real children.

If you think about it, some anime release here could actually get you arrested. Elfen Lied comes pretty close during one scene, but they stop just in time to keep it barely legal based on the Title 18 stuff.

Gah, this might be trouble fr a friend of mine, thank god he's in Texas.

is there something speical about texas? i live in texas

Hard to understand the reasoning behind all this...

They are drawings, which someone made up, it's fictional, a comic book, something that came from another person's mind.

What greater good does putting him away for 15 years do? Stop him from reading manga?

Do I have to watch out what anime I buy now in the US as Kamanashi said...how do I know before watching a show if anything is shown that falls under the same law? Remember that anime are drawings too...

@dark: I'm hoping we don't have to be careful. But you never know in today's society.

One day they sentence a man who raped his daughter to 15 years, the next, a man who raped his daughter and killed her is sentenced to 10. Nothing is ever kept at a equal rate in the legal system any more. So the next guy they try this on could end up not being charged at all.

It's all BS. From what I heard it was a plea bargain, which I know from experience in court is just a legal bribe and is BS. apparently even tho the section of that one bill was found unconstitutional because drawings can't be hurt, another article had the same thing and he was charged under that or something...just saying what i read..why wasn't that article considered unconstitutional? lame judge is lame, that is all. better to just stick to the internet rather than physical mail I guess

@Catrohpy

It's the North-...I mean "Lone" Star state, right, that's what I mean.

According to the article he broke federal law by receiving material in the mail that was illegal to have. "possessing obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children and mailing obscene material". He was also found having additional material, it doesn't say it was 1 piece of additional material , it could have been as low as one other or it could have been trucks loads of offensive and illegal material. If he sent any liquid that was hazardous he would have been arrested as well if he was caught doing so and if they came to his house and found other material he could have shipped that was hazardous it would play out as a strike against him. And what do you mean he's a lawyer for MAMBLA, that faggot group ... he should be put down for even being associated with them.

My bad, the Comipress Author should be put down for associating with NAMBLA, even if he's just a lawyer who cares not that NAMBLA means North American Man-Boy Love Association, WTF!

[quote]According to the article he broke federal law by receiving material in the mail that was illegal to have....[/quote]

@ Samurai Will: You might want to read the Neil Gaiman post linked in that Dirk Deppey article linked above (linked below for convenience). It looks like there have been a number of cases that declared similar charges unconstitutional.

http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-icky-speech.html

The government might come after anyone that owns an anime with panty shots next because they deem it obscene.

Give an inch and they take a mile.

Hello all. I am a close friend of Chris' family. To shed some light on what happened, I thought I would share what I know. It was his own lawyer that encouraged him to take the plea. His lawyer convinced him that the case could not be won, and that he would be better off to plea to the lesser charge. However, it is my understanding that Chris was mislead in this. From what we were told, the lesser charge was simply the possession and import of obscene materials. He was also told that if he plead out, that he would more than likely not see any time as he has been on probation this whole time and has not been any kind of a threat to society since he had been placed on probation. Many of us that know Chris, are just as disappointed and upset as many of you. It is a miscarriage of justice, and with any luck it can be appealed.

I feel that his lawyer failed him greatly. This really is a travesty, especially considering the kind of money that was paid to this lawyer and to his defense. This whole situation has been an incredible blow, not only to the anime community, but to the art world at large. I will pass on well wishes to his family. Thank you all for your support and thoughts over the last couple of years, and God willing, hopefully this won't happen to anyone else out there. But just in case, a word to the wise, don't forget...Big brother is watching.

Does anyone know if the drawings were of anime girls or if they were like realistic drawings of little girls(I have seen some that look like the artist used real life references for his drawings).

[quote]Does anyone know if the drawings were of anime girls or if they were like realistic drawings of little girls(I have seen some that look like the artist used real life references for his drawings).[/quote]


They were anime. Not realistic drawings of little girls.

One thing that I had forgotten to add in my above post, was what his lawyer had told him. According to a conversation I had with his sister just a few hours ago, his lawyer had told him a month or so ago that if he took the plea then he would be plea bargaining down to possession of obscene materials. Nothing mentioning obscene materials with children in them. Also that he would not serve any time in jail because he's been a good boy while he was on probation, and that his fine would be under a grand. His family is rather upset over the whole thing and is like every one else, in wishing that he hadn't taken the plea. However, it all came down to what his lawyer wanted to do. His lawyer didn't want to fight it. So, he threw Chris under the bus.

Quite honestly, I don't think it really matters what drawings are of anyway. Why does it matter? What one man considers to be art, another man will consider garbage. If the feds are able to go after people for cartoons, and that's what they are folks, cartoons, then what is going to stop them from going after other forms of art? They have already been able to shut down websites because of dirty stories, which like this case, has no real life victims in them. How long is it going to be before they start putting us all in playpens and dictate everything that we say, see, or do?

I read the Gaiman stuff, thanks for the link.
What other charges was he facing if that's the lesser charge?

"From what we were told, the lesser charge was simply the possession and import of obscene materials."

way to go America!

[quote]I read the Gaiman stuff, thanks for the link.
What other charges was he facing if that's the lesser charge?

"From what we were told, the lesser charge was simply the possession and import of obscene materials."[/quote]

It was essentially a grocery list of stuff.

-The import of child pornography
-The possession of child pornography
-The possession of child pornography involving bestiality

The list went on and on. The thing of it is, the four comics that started this whole mess, he didn't even see what pictures were inside of it. At one point, they even tried to claim that he was a child molester (never at ANY time has Chris been inappropriate with a child. NEVER) They stated that they could prove that he had a thing for kids. They never found ANYTHING other than comics and drawings of anime. PERIOD. They claimed that since the females in the drawings had no pubic hair, then they must be minor children. Which is ridiculous. They tried to claim that he was a threat to society. He's not a threat to anybody.

He had told his sister that he was taking the plea for obscene materials, because that he was guilty of. But he was NOT guilty of obscene materials containing children. The "containing children" part was not told to him by his lawyer. I think Chris got screwed three ways to Sunday on this.

AnimeFriend - There is a big difference of what the drawings could be of. There's manga out there that feature elementary school aged children getting molested by older men. I don't believe this is the case with Chris. The whole case sounds like a big misunderstanding.

It's common to see sex in manga between consenting teens or a teen with an older person. A lot of these are available in bookstores across the country. Where is the line drawn? Does "Containing children" mean someone in high school? Does it mean someone that appears to be younger than high school?

They haven't given him a sentence yet, so for all we know he won't get any jail time and will only be fined $1,000. If he possessed images containing 'minors'(which could be girls under 18) he is guilty of that charge. I'm not saying that he should be convicted of anything for it. Unless any of the material he had contained elementary students I think the whole case is ridiculous.

[quote]Unless any of the material he had contained elementary students I think the whole case is ridiculous.[/quote]

Even if they did contain elementary students, why would that suddenly make the case not ridiculous?

They're still just drawings. Fiction. Not real.

There are no victims here besides the defendant.

Juichi: It doesn't matter what the drawings are. If it was a baby being raped by a 500 year old anthropomorphic dog this whole thing would still be just as ridiculous. All those images contain are original lines and curved lines put together to look like something else. There is no victim in a drawing, so there should be no crime.

Based on what happened in this case, the following image could be illegal: http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b345/Outlaw_Spike/illegal.jpg

zomg, don't tell the feds if you looked!

I find it really disturbing how some Japan-enthusiasts are willing to overlook something as fundamentally wrong as the depiction of sexual abuse of children just because its in the form of anime or manga!

Just because its in a drawing does make it right, or acceptable. It doesn't make it any less insensitive or offensive to real life victims of abuse, does it?

This glamorisation of sexual abuse and rape through lolicon, shotacon and hentai only succeed in justifying the real life crime!

The main issue here Saku is not that they are not defending THAT particular type of material. The issue is that this is only STEP 1 on a bigger scale of sanctioning what we see and are alowed to create . It makes claim to hold sovereignty over what can and cannot be considered art. Includeing the more harsh depictions of what in some cases is a sad reality in parts ofthe world.

Thisis a direct blow to the enitre artistic community asa whole. Censorship is bad enough in some places but now they are cracking down not just on things depicting moraley questionable material but even philosophicaly questionable ones. How can art do what it is intended to do ,inspire,be interpreted and above all inform people of other possibilties, if its censored to the point where all pieces are the same? How can we freely think if we are not alowed to create content outside of anothers thinking? How can we be free if we are not alowed to act to our own accord? How is that different from slavery?

The fact is this also is a step in another direction of missinformation. I have noticed a disturbing trend in society recently ,the ignoreing of what we realy are and how we think. Throughout history until recently (not even the past couple hundred years) it was not odd for a girl of 13-16 to get married and have children. Now heaven forbid she has sex much less kids. Fact is boys and girls children have sex drives period its inside all creatures we just ignore that certain age groups have one. Some girls of age 9 (some younger) masturebate and this has even been pointed out on certain shows (house as a matter of fact).This in particular is not the only thing we ignore another major thing we ignore is that in truth humanities greatest inovations and much of its history has been forged in blood. People tend to simply ignore these things though in order to make themselves feel more comfortable rather than become informed,we are chooseing ignorance not about our world but about ourselves.

Last there are many lewd jokes out there made by a MAJOR part of society as a whole that clearly states how most realy view things. Yes they are jokes but they wouldnt be laughed at if the other parties were not of similar mindsets. These jokes vary greatly but all share one common trait, they are not normaly acepted as politicaly correct or even 'right' by many moral definitions but are still stated and aparently sccepted as they are perpertrated by the majority of society.

[quote]I find it really disturbing how some Japan-enthusiasts are willing to overlook something as fundamentally wrong as the depiction of sexual abuse of children just because its in the form of anime or manga!

Just because its in a drawing does make it right, or acceptable. It doesn't make it any less insensitive or offensive to real life victims of abuse, does it?

This glamorisation of sexual abuse and rape through lolicon, shotacon and hentai only succeed in justifying the real life crime![/quote]

I'd like to respond to this. Before I start responding, I want to make it very clear that I do not advocate the sexual abuse of children. I've seen what these children have to deal with on a first hand basis and it is a travesty.

With that being said, children and sex have not only been in art but have been in literature for years as well. Take Romeo and Juliet for instance, both of them were under what is now considered the legal age. Juliet was supposed to be 13 and Romeo was 15. In the 1960's there was an excellent film adaptation of this play. In the film, both of the actors portraying those roles were playing characters that were underage, and they themselves were actually underage. There is a sex scene between them in the film. I watched this movie in the ninth grade for literature class some twenty years ago. Was I watching child porn? According to the law nowadays, technically, yes. Brooke Shields starred in a movie called "Pretty Baby" when she was an early teen. The movie portrays a girl that is raised in a whorehouse. It also shows her with full frontal nudity. Many argue that this movie was an art film. What about Shields in "Blue Lagoon"? Again, she was a teenager when this movie was filmed. It not only shows her fully nude, but it also shows her having sex with her "brother". Is this movie child porn?

As far as literature is concerned, the author V.C. Andrews made her living off of writing books that had scenes of sex between teenagers and the sexual assaults of children. In the book, "Flowers in the Attic", there are multiple scenes of a brother and sister discovering their changing teenage bodies and engaging in sex. In the novel "My Sweet Audrina", she talks about a girl that is gang raped by other boys when she is around seven years old and it causes her to have trauma induced amnesia. These are only two examples out of a multitude of books in her repertoire. Many of her books revolve around the subject of child molestation, rape, and teenage sex. Her books have sold millions of copies, and you can still find her books in bookstores today. A famous poet, Anne Sexton, wrote poems that centered around her own sexual abuse as a child.

In the art world, there have been many painting throughout history that depict teenagers or young children nude and in sexual poses. Just because they are more artfully drawn or painted, does not make them worth any more than someone who is a collector of manga or anime. Did you know that every time you look at the statue of David, that you are looking at a sixteen year old boy? The model that had posed for that infamous statue was only sixteen years old.

I will admit, that in some anime and manga that it can be drawn pretty extreme. Is it my cup of tea? No. But I am not going to tell someone else what he/she can or cannot read. If this type of censorship is allowed to continue, it will spread. Books that have been on the shelves for years will be lost, famous plays will be lost, art will be lost. Do you think that the government needs to hold our hands like children and tell us what is appropriate for us to see? I don't need it. I'm also sure the bulk of the American people don't need it either.

[quote]This glamorisation of sexual abuse and rape through lolicon, shotacon and hentai only succeed in justifying the real life crime![/quote]

I will start this off like many other posts here: I don't think that child abuse is excusable; but I don't think that's the case here.

Through your line of reasoning quoted above,any violent film/book should also be illegal b/c it justifies murder. Any media that shows drug use should be illegal b/c it justifies illegal drug consumption. I'm not saying that your opinions are wrong, but this is flawed logic.

So who is this lawyer? Eric Chase? http://www.uniteddefensegroup.com/bio_eric_chase.htm

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?id=18412&page=article , October 13th, 2008
' Eric Chase and his team at the United Defense Group have been vigorously defending Handley (...) '

' Eric Chase recognized the importance of the case, and of the CBLDF's contribution to it, in a statement to the CBLDF: "This case represents the latest in a string of efforts by the Department of Justice to encroach on free speech. The United Defense Group is committed to fighting to maintain the protections guaranteed in the Constitution, and we appreciate the CBLDF's support in this fight." '

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2008/11/24/neil-gaiman-on-the-obscenity-of-manga-collector-christopher-handleys-trial/ , November 24, 2008
' “There is explicit sex in yaoi comics,” Handley’s lawyer Eric Chase told MTV. “And the men are drawn in a very androgynous style, which has the effect of making them look really young. There’s a real taboo in Japan about showing pubic hair, so they’re all drawn without it, which also makes them look young. So what concerned the authorities were the depictions of children in explicit sexual situations that they believed to be obscene. But there are no actual children. It was all very crude images from a comic book. '

Matt Thorn's blog post including two letters by Christopher Handley�s mother (May 24, 2009 & May 26, 2009) :
http://matt-thorn.com/wordpress/?p=318

I still stand by what I said. There's a line between 'art' and what is meant for pleasure. You can't say that all of the porn out there is just 'art'. There are many children out there that get molested. They don't ask for it, they don't want it. Many of the art that is out there on the subject is usually the pain that is put through children that have gone through this. The art isn't meant to stimulate someone.

There is a difference between ages. A 13 year old may know what he/she is doing and is willing, while a 5 year old is much more naive and doesn't even know what sex is. While younger children may be explorative with sex, it doesn't mean that they want sex. Anyone, of any age, can be molested, but someone getting joy out of a little child raises a bigger concern to me. If someone is attracted to a young child, that isn't capable of bearing children and isn't developed there's an issue.

Someone who owns multiple manga, that contains situations between 5 years olds and 30 year olds that are intended for personal stimulation, creates a big concern to me. Someone who would own many(owning many shows a true interest) of these would need an evaluation. I'm not saying that someone who watches or owns this type of porn will go out and act it out. The person should be evaluated and put on watch. I think it would be ridiculous to throw someone in jail over it, unless an evaluation proved that they have the mental capacity to truly act it out.

Maybe guilty plea is the first step to overturning the law? I'd like to see what Chase has to say to Gaiman, since Gaiman totally blogged saying Handley should not be in jail and did bring up Moore's Lost Girls in his rant.

[quote]I still stand by what I said. There's a line between 'art' and what is meant for pleasure. You can't say that all of the porn out there is just 'art'. There are many children out there that get molested. They don't ask for it, they don't want it. Many of the art that is out there on the subject is usually the pain that is put through children that have gone through this. The art isn't meant to stimulate someone.

There is a difference between ages. A 13 year old may know what he/she is doing and is willing, while a 5 year old is much more naive and doesn't even know what sex is. While younger children may be explorative with sex, it doesn't mean that they want sex. Anyone, of any age, can be molested, but someone getting joy out of a little child raises a bigger concern to me. If someone is attracted to a young child, that isn't capable of bearing children and isn't developed there's an issue.

Someone who owns multiple manga, that contains situations between 5 years olds and 30 year olds that are intended for personal stimulation, creates a big concern to me. Someone who would own many(owning many shows a true interest) of these would need an evaluation. I'm not saying that someone who watches or owns this type of porn will go out and act it out. The person should be evaluated and put on watch. I think it would be ridiculous to throw someone in jail over it, unless an evaluation proved that they have the mental capacity to truly act it out.[/quote]

It seems I've found yet another soul who doesn't quite understand the difference between perception and reality. Let's be very clear: if someone reads lolicon manga to satisfy a sexual desire for children, that can very well prevent them from actually attempting to have sexual contact with children. There are studies out there which I'm not able to pull up at the moment that prove that it works this way, plus it's just plain old common sense. Men in particular tend to be "turned off" for a good while after getting off (it's called a "refractory period," wikipedia it if you think I'm full of crap) and if they get off to drawings of child abuse, they're effectively cut off from wanting to engage in the REAL abuse of a REAL child. Your fears are bogus and likely stem from the "predator panic" all around the United States which is completely ignorant of the facts about sex crimes.

The point here is that the person you express concern about is very likely to be able to control urges through use of such material, whereas banning the material or otherwise making it unavailable makes it certain that there is no other way to fulfill such a desire than to go after the real thing.

Lack of knowledge (or choosing to ignore that knowledge for personal advancement as politicians do regularly) is a very dangerous thing, particularly to the children you want to be safe. What you THINK is the best way to keep children from being molested has to align with actual research and facts backed by real-world studies on the subject. If it doesn't, then what you think is wrong, period, end of story. Kind of like how gun bans on college campuses make students feel safe, but when a gunman who doesn't give a damn about the rules anyway starts shooting up the place, the FEELING of being safe doesn't exactly mean BEING safe, does it? Same thing with people who are attracted to preteens...

if you can get 15 years for loli, i'm soooooo screwed.

At first I am pissed off at the CBLDF lawyer, but he may have done it since he'd get convicted anyway. The problem is, the law considers fictional children to be people, and since ANY sex is 'abuse', it would be a correct charge.

The problem is moreso the law, which needs to be protested and appealed, or else what's next, Alan Moore's Lost Girls? Let's see them try that, srsly.

I don't know where anyone got the idea that Handley would be able to appeal his guilty plea. It's a condition of the plea that there be NO appeal. Says so in plain English. The reason? The government knows the possession charge is unconstitutional, because the trial judge ruled it so in 2008. Thus Handley would be able to plead guilty and walk later.

As far as people looking for lines to draw between art and something that should send someone to jail, all I can say is that you should take off your cultural blinders.

To begin with, counting full-length manga and shorter doujinshi, there are many thousands of magazines devoted to it. There are also many hundreds, if not thousands, of chapters of it (usually between 6 and 20 pages) in adult anthologies. The number of representations of figure
drawings of nonexistent humans and other fantasy nonbeings (what else could you call a figure with elf ears or a tail?) which could be considered under the age of 18 human years, is uncountable. For those who haven't noticed, lolicon and schoolgirls, along with huge breasts (including of schoolgirls), bdsm and rape, are mainstays of manga, not bizarre kinks in it. Chances are that any serious collector of erotic manga is going to have lolicon images in some "hentai" publication.

Moreover, Handley got his magazines by mail-order (they weren't necessarily lolicon - no one but Handley and the government knows what they are), but one need not look far or wide to find this material. There are literally hundreds of blogs and download sites that offer it on line. There are numerous blogs devoted to translating from Japanese to English and EVERY download service - deposit files, easy-share, badongo, rapidshare, mega-upload, you name it - has lolicon in its inventory. Manga is published in Japan, but the popularity of it, including lolicon, is a world phenomenon. There are sites in the U.K., Spain, Argentina, Portugal, Russia, among other places, although the majority of sites are hosted in the U.S. even if they're ostensibly ex-US sites. To find any of this material is as simple as typing "lolicon" in Google.

As a final point, the publishers in Japan don't make a whole lot of distinctions when putting together their anthologies of erotic manga. Their object is to sell and expand their market. If a reader doesn't like a particular drawing, well, he turns the page. If he likes it, he comes back for more. But censors are different. They can't avert their eyes. They have to look and look and look until their knickers get all in a twist and, lacking any expressive ability themselves, they start drawing moral and legal lines over which someone else's fantasies may not cross.

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This guy ordered the material directly from Japan? This fact is very interesting and says a lot. I never thought there is a shortage of manga porn in the US. How do you think, why would anyone need to special order it from Japan? It might be a kind of stuff that can't be found here.