damitt to hell

Well, at least the back and forth is over. Like I said in an earlier comment though, it may help with the foreign view of Japan, even if it is a little overboard. I just wonder what they plan to do about the older games.

shit

The answer is, don't put the world "rape" in the title of your game, and nobody outside your country will ever have a fucking clue or care.

Doesn't concern me, but this seems like a loss for free speech.

I know several people who just attempted suicide and assassination of EOCS personal...

@faceoffking:Cool... I think...
@Wedge: I guess yo uare right. And make sure the character say they enjoy it at least once.

so... is rapeman out of a job?

lol watch the crime rate for rape go up soon since they get to play no more rape games hah

And the anon comment rate at Zepy goes up because of this debacle.

Like I said in the first article that mentioned this: as the advocatus diaboliis on the matter, I supported it, but only because of the moral offensibility of the act itself. Even in the fictional context, its offensibility is innate (and, going by the comments of anonymous on Zeoy's website, esp. the more misogynist ones, I'm slightly inclined to think that, even if it is related to the actual rate of sexual offence in the real world, it would at least be related to the rate of misogynism.

God d*****...

F***ing little... I can't believe this. World's first convictable thought crime, all in the name of equality??? those d*** ignorant broads.

I only have a minor issue with this but I cast those aside because of the nature of these games. Yes people do have the right to express them selves, you have wills of your own use them. And just like you some japanese people and fans of these will continue to make these games. But it does not mean society has to accept or encourage those thoughts or attempts. Its a basic nature of culture to encourage or discourage ideas and thoughts it does or does not agree with. This is good to me. Anything that shows a push back against anything that celebrates depriving basic human rights I am for. Although this solves ALMOST nothing. Rape games are a societal symptoms. There is something much more serious underlining this issue that touches on sociological problems found deep with in the culture as well.

Just a contrasting thought. Entertainment is not harmless its a tool.

@Music Hobo

I'm inclined to agree. As much as Japan has a relatively low rate of sexual offences IIRC, it should be noted that it does have substantial societal problems, like hikkikomori and a severe ageing population.

@Heero

A thought crime is when you're caught commiting an act of though, an act only possible amongst psychics and those gifted with psionic abilities.

I like to think of it more as a convictable fiction crime. Yes, it's similar to what's been done in some states in the U.S. (people being arrested for owning adult comics), but I do find this form of sexual abuse particularly offensive.

Then again, I fear that the issue may be very murky. It coudl well be that the feminists that pushed for this are unaware of otaku culture, and may end up making Orientalist judgements of said culture. I can just imagine the possibilities....

Exactly as p.... predicted.

Krauser is going to have to change the lyrics to some of his songs....

My point of view is still the same as on the previous posts. This is fictional and has nothing to do with reality, just like drawings are from someone's imagination, not connected to reality.

@Dark

I'd disagree on the account that what happens in another world, at least in someone's imagination, takes place in another reality outside of this one.

I mentioned this argument in an earlier article on this topic. Yes, it is true that outside reality, in being unconnected to us, give us the excuse to consider that whatever happens to them (that is, in fiction) can't really affect us. But, for me, it's a mirror of what goes on in our world. And you can't deny it: what happens in some of these games has happened in reality. It's not all that fictional.

And, if whatever happens in these outside realities, as narrated to us, seems to exist only as entertainment, then I wonder about the existence of fables with moral output, or the subject of literature as an analysis of fiction. Not to mention how so many people have stated that some of the most popular fiction (Lord of the Rings and Sherlock Holmes coes to my mind) seems so close and connected to them. If they were purely in the imagination, then the readers of such books would not be able to get this connected to them.

And it goes further. Tolkien, at one point, described the Bible as the 'true myth'. And perhaps it is. The beginnings of Genesis are mostly fictional, wwhich can't be denied, as evolution has shown that Adam & Eve didn't exist and the Tower of Babel were most likely written in response to the Ziggurat. But that doesn't deny that the stories may have some inkling of spiritual truth.

And finaly, there's the issue of Baudrillard's hyperreality. It's a complex philosophical thought, but it can be somewhat (grossly) summed up to saying that what we see in new media (television and computers), in seeming so real, would end up being confused with out own actual reality. It's not just limited to computer games: excessive advertising and movies with fictional plots but real actors on a realistic screen (made more so real with HD and improved special effects ) confuse our idea of what is reality to some point.

So, if you ask me, whatever happens ion another person's imagination is connected from reality. After all, to note the Lockean 'tabula rasa' (blank slate), the mind cannot form imaginations on its own without some original image formed from reality. And, from there, the link to reality is reestablished when the imagination is released out into the public by published fiction.

@Kyonshiro

The content of these games may reflect aspects of reality, but they DON'T cause them! Therefore, any connection is irrelevant as to whether there is anything wrong with the games themselves.... They cause nothing, so nothing can possibly be wrong with them. It doesn't matter if people feel a connection to them or not, and it doesn't matter is society dislikes them or not -- because again, they cause nothing to happen in this reality.

In fact, you are proving 100% the exact opposite:

It is in reality and in society itself that all of the problems originate. So, if anything, these games are helping the situation by reflecting it back at people, so that they can see it all more clearly!! {Although, the number of women in this reality who are actually being invaded by tentacled creatures, for instance.... seems rather few, really!}

@Megalon75

I doubt your first paragraph on the possibility that they may, and in some cases, do cause something. Of course, the rather low rate of sexual offences in Japan is a sign, but I'd note that it's measured against the whole population, and not the demographic of otakun themselves. And, it's not limited to just sexual offences. It could include hikikomori , misogynisms, or whatever possible hypothetical implication. In short, I think it's murky enough that people don't know this existence and may not have even done enough research into the area. The fact that Japanese news covered Rapelay shows that knowledge of the game was not known within its own context (and that's just one game !)

I don't deny that they don't cause anything to happen in this reality directly (until parallel universe sliding becomes available), but the fact that Uncle Tom's Cabin helped spread the distaste towards slavery during the Civil War period in America, and that the Bible was popular enough to incite a 2000 year old institution that was invovled in various wars, sponsored exploration into new lands, and shaped Western civilization all on the ambiguous premise that a Man sacrificed himself and came to life three days later. For allw e know, it could have been true, but, if it is false, then I think it does prove that a story can cause something to happen in this reality, and not necesarilly reflect something already known of within it.

I would be tempted to agree with your second paragraph if it isn't for the fact that the particular rape games in question don't do that much of a job, and don't do it well. I've played some eroge where rape occurs, but the rape is not shown in a good light or is encouraged. Nor was any bonuses awarded in the particular context. I find those scenarios far more enlightening then scenarios that triumph the practise. As I said in another article, I don't think rape should be completely removed from the genre as if it were a taboo subject. Rather, if it has to be approached, it should be done so in negative light to show, indeed, that it points back to society and that society is responsible for it.

And as for tentacle hentai (LAWL)....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dream_of_the_Fisherman%27s_Wife


Seems plausible.

@Kyonshiro

I think that placing this in a real life context or even linking them together is unfounded. If a person has issues keeping fact and fiction separated, then I would see that as a personal/mental issue, not something that should be accepted across the board.

Let's swap out all instances of rape for murder, do you think you can still make the same argument?

Regarding hyperreality, if you go even further, does watching violent shows or playing violent games make you want to kill people or make you violent? I would say not to the extent that rape games would want to make you rape someone.

While I agree that rape should be placed in a negative context, I feel that in most cases "killing" people in games is glorified and encouraged, so how does that make sense? Isn't killing a bit worse than rape?

Either sides won't affect me personally, but it's still a good starting point of what if...

What if they ban nudity next? or breasts? or anime with animals because it supposedly causes animal abuse? You can find any excuse to ban something, and that is sadly the current way of thinking in the US.

It will set off a chain reaction! While some people might not like various things, it doesn't mean that the rest of us shouldn't take part in something we like.

Example : I personally like romantic/harem themed animes (think Shuffle, ZnT, Rosario, True Tears, Maria Holic, Toradora, etc). Most of these depict polygamy in essence. Polygamy is illegal in the US, so should these be banned?

Funny you brought up the bible because that is the weapon of choice here in the US.

I will not be measured or judged by the values of something I do not believe in, although the people who believe in it, think that everyone else irregardless has to be judged by their morals and beliefs.

That's one small step for a censorship, a giant leap for making sane eroge

@Dark

Of course, the issues of keeping reality seperate from fiction is far more complicated then we like to simplify it to. Sure, we can, for the sake of pragmatism, argue that the immediate reality is what that matters and cannot be void, but, it doesn't change the fact that reality has, often at times, proven to be stranger than fiction. How far the line can be blurred remains to be an unexplroed frontier.

Of course, the psychological issue of schizophrenia (confusing reality with fiction) is a seperate matter that does require examination (which I don'I don't deny)

Technically, if I were to replace the argument with murder, it'd still stand. I don't play games that advoccate murder as an enjoyable and healthy excercise (and yes, I don't play the GTA series) That doesn't mean I'm against violence.... I suppsoe I'ma ddicted to the stereotype of the protagonist who has to resort to violence in dire situations. Even in most TV shows and films about mruder, unless the film attempts to showcase the mentality of the murderer, it is most often that the case that we are following the path of the detective who is supposed to stop the murderer. As it is in real life.

Like I said, my articulation of Baudrillard's hyperreality is too overly simplified, but, that statement is plausible. Often times, we repeat the mantra that "it is just a game, it just a game', but what if it wasn't. The fact that developers have often time pushed the boundaries to make the blood and gore more realistic aids in the process of confusing our natural idea of what is 'real.'

And I find that comparison not apt. Just because killing seems 'worse' than rape doesn't make either action more toelrabelt han the other. I can imagine rape victims who would rather die than go through process again (it would seem like bliss) Of course, killing is the termination of life, but rape brings with it a bruden of shame that can last a lifetime. And, noting the known scenarios of lifelong sexual abuse, one can't help but onder what sort of life they would have lived if this had not befallen them.

As for censorship, that I don't deny. Which is the reason why people should always have an open mind and be interested in pondering and debating on the issue of what and what-not to ban. It's not as simple as saying "It's obscene !" or "Think of the children !" Censorship has, often times, proven to be either useful, or a barrier towards intellectual freedom. That itself, a far murkier water.

As for bringing up the Bible, I guess I have to apologise on that, but the themes of mythopoeia are not limtied to one particular institution. Being familiar with San Guo, I would say that the Romance of the Three Kingdoms is a gross exaggeration, and romanticization of one of the bloodiest periods of Chinese history, with the author going so far as to paint one of the warlords, the pretender Liu Bei, who could well been a cunning and devious man, as a brave and virtuout leader, and his retainer, Guan Yu, who was an arrogant vigilante, as a warrior saint. This doesn't prevent people from treating Liu Bei (up till now) as the leader of thate ra, and Guan Yu... well, he's practically worshiped (as the God of War). And then, there's the Journey to the West. If you're familiar with the hindu epic of the Ramayana, Krishna had to get the help of the monkey hero, Hanuman. Later, one Buddhist writer took Hanuma, gave hime a Chinese, Sun Wu Kong, and produced another gross fantasy (based on an actual journey), or a journey to the west, complete with a ridiculously overpowered Hanuman, a pig and ex-murderer, along with the Buddhist monk who was renamed. Doesn't believable, but heck, ti makes a good story, and still inspried people o this day.

I, myself, don't believe in judging other people according to some particular, self-righteous culture and/or religion. I say this, coming from a country that has seen the myriad of its races and cultures as being integral to its unity, and with religions that, in being equal to each other, have learnt to live with each other in tolerance and unity under a secular government. At the same time, one to acknowledge that some boundaries cannot be crossed amongst most cultures (or at least a few), and even secular society itself has boundaries that it wishes to keep taboo (amongst them, sexual abuse and killing of the innocent and unarmed)

Then again, Singapore doesn't sell eroge ( :P ) But, I do hope for the day that it does.

And, while I admit that I shouldn't have used the Bible, the point of fiction being a strong mtoviating force isn't restricted to one dominant culture.

@SRC9

I agree, and I hope that it'll result that way. I wouldn't want to see the demise of eroge, but I would rather see a lot more good old fashioned consensual sex.

I'm not much of an Anime geek, but I just had to chime in.

"Censorship has, often times, proven to be either useful, or a barrier towards intellectual freedom." I'm interested to hear about censorship's benefit to society.

From an objective point of view, violence and murder are the worst crimes you can commit on a living creature. Most fear can eventually be traced back to "fear of death." Which is a more relevant issue on our world today, rape or violence? Gee, let me think. It can further be argued that the violent aspect is what makes rape itself so frightening.

Are we banning violent video games and movies, because an inconceivable amount of people die to violence yearly? No, that would be ridiculous. World War 2 alone killed over 60 million people. How's that for having an effect on reality? Ban WW2 video games, models, hobbies, MOVIES. Instead of tackling... Oh I, don't know, real stuff? You people save us from cartoon and tentacle monsters - let me repeat that - *cartoons and tentacle monsters*.

Speculate on the nature of reality all you want, the fact is there are some huge things affecting people's lives, starvation, war, corporate capitulation, that are killing millions of families, women and children, and causing unspeakable tragedies. You telling people what they do and do not have the right to DRAW is stupid, petty and ridiculous.

And here's another thing people do not seem to really grasp. You, as an individual, thinking something is offensive, is not grounds for it to be legally BANNED. Get a clue.

Score one for ignorance.

P.S. I'm really serious about hearing about all the good censorship has done for... well, anybody. I got a whole list of bad stuff here, we can trade.

@Vcnt

A pity that this one came out kinda late.

And you know what, score another one for ignoramnce on your account.

I admit that I live in a country that practises a heavy amount of censorship, but it was censorship that has effectively allowed the country to continue peacefully without too many intellectual dangers within it.

It may have not done good for everybody, it it did good for somebody.

In fact, lets take it a step further: what about non-drawn child pronography ? Or censorship of access to top-secret military articles. That too, honestly, counts as censorship.

Yes, I admit I am looking too idealistic at the situation, but I can't help but feel that resorting to fictionalized accounts of violations or criminal activities, although not as 'realistic' to actual accounts of the activity itself, allows one to get the same feel of comitting the act. Consider that some people who cannot hadnle the idea of having a real relationship prefer to turn to some idealized 2D image as their 'perfect wife'.

I think those things are a sickness of the mind.

Censorship has done a good deal lot for people, just as it has done a a lot of bad. Problem is, we just aren't aware of it.

@Vcnt

Oh, and if you want to know what country I'm from, it's Singapore.

Yes, we could easily allow the publishing of Salmen Rushdie's "Satanic Verses" (which is banned here) as we have a 70% chinese population and a relativel minor 30% that is Muslim. Plus, our government is secular in nature.

Thing is, even if what is drawn or written can easily offend. Sure, you can easily rebutt and say that people should be more tolerant. But, as you've pointed human nature isn't so tolerant.

Censorship has done a lot of good for my country, preventing potential racial riots in a world where it is so easy to disagree on anything. Sure, you can say that it is closed up, which it is, but it's not as if some information cannot be accessed without a little effort.

There's a lot more we don't know.