In case you are wondering, the world of fansubs—much like the Roman empire—has fallen; well according to the Otaking it has. It has fallen so far, and hit every branch along the way that Otaking believed it was necessary to spend half a year creating a documentary about it.
According to Otaking, fansubs have gone bad ever since fansubbing groups began to compete over viewers using dirty tricks like karaoke, honorifics, and translator notes. Back in the old day fansubbers used a simple yellow text and ran over every –san, -chan, and –sempai that stood in its way. Things have changed because of this one golden concept that anime fans have come to accept: Japanese has become a sacred language.
Like every other old person living in this world today, Otaking argues that the old way, is in fact the better way. He argues that the amateurish attitude in the fansubbing community is destroying it from the inside out. But don’t take my word for it, watch the 30 minute documentary after the jump and then stick around for my impression.
Now onto my thoughts; he may be the Otaking but I am the OtaGod. First thing’s first, yes fansubs are sometimes bad, obtrusive, and overall wrong; but you know what, that’s fine. They call it fansubs for a reason. If I want good looking subs, with a fantastic translation I will buy the DVD when it comes out and read those. Anime is a niche audience, and fansubs are an even more niche audience; having a word or two left in Japanese isn’t really a problem because we like that sort of stuff. We are anime fans after all.
But I have to agree with him when it comes to over saturation with translator notes; a page at the end should be enough. Putting fansubber credits over the official ones is disrespectful I have to agree, and I’m sure they can find the space for them after the official credits are over. Also, I have no care for karaoke subs, they always end up getting in the way for me. I mean does anyone actually sit down and sing the songs as they watch the show?
Otaking makes some good points, but its hard to yell and scream at people who are doing this as a hobby. In fact we should be giving them hugs and kit kats for their hard work. I’ll say it again, if you want professional subs go to the professionals.
I mean does anyone actually sit down and sing the songs as they watch the show?
*raises hand*
It is the height of petty hypocrisy for me to argue that any fan of anything short of the ones who stab people out of fannish love should find something constructive to do, so I'll just skirt it and say that if you want a quality fansub, either do it yourself or find one of several very good groups amidst the displeasing ones. Simple.
"In fact we should be giving them hugs and kit kats for their hard work."
Kit kats? Hot damn!
::Runs off to start a fansub group::
Really, I don't mind a translator note here and there but if every single little detail has a note, then I'll just quit watching that group and look for someone else. I mean, we're (fairly) intelligent people and we don't need to have everything explained to us.
Whats sad is, I was able to read all the stuff at the end which made the video that much funnier, then if I missed it.
The problem I think that most fan subbers have is that they do not understand the that Japanese has only past and present tense. Which is one thing that you see messed up in allot of fan subs IMO.
But what do I know I am just a conversational English Teacher .
I remember when I first saw this new style of fansubs and it was absolutely jarring especially after being so used to the old style. The quality of the experience becomes compromised and what's left are the fansubs themselves.
Fansubbers express their love for what they are subbing by trying to preserve the dialogue in some way or trying to explain things to help others understand and appreciate what they're watching.
Maybe it's not an ego thing, but misdirected passion. Because of their zealotry to show how much they love anime, they have made it so hard for others to appreciate it.
The good news is that anime as a whole has been losing out on quality so there's not much to be missed.
P.S. Manga scanslators who redraw art on a scan because the quality wasn't good are on my naughty list.
If I want good looking subs, with a fantastic translation I will buy the DVD when it comes out and read those.
to be honest, i have a much, much worse opinion of so-called "professionally" translated releases.
maybe this has improved in recent years, and companies do make an effort to provide good subs on dvd.
but there's a limit: they sometimes overlocalise, leaving out cultural details i like so much about anime, and dvds are quite limited in what you can do with them. it's not possible to encode frames larger than 720x576, and subtitle frames are limited to 4 paletted colors (including transparency).
fansubbers are usually much less limited. they can pretty much use any video/audio codec and container format available, and they may style their subtitles as they see fit. which brings in something i hate about many fansubs: karaoke text should be provided for those who want to sing along. glittering and jumping letters, tiny heart or leaf fireworks make it a pain to follow the text.
fortunately, the hdvd and bd offer far more than the dvd, but not everyone has a player yet, and releases are still scarce. even in japan.
I don't mind those text at all really. Maybe it's just because I'm used to it growing up in Asia. Those Asian variety shows literally bombard you with notes, colorful text, news scrolling on the side of the screen, funny sound effects, and even phonetic words iterating the funny sound effects. O_o
The extra information ("translator notes") are a nice bonus. I always appreciate learning new things, culture/language being one of them. There's nothing wrong with a moderate amount of culture notes to help you understand and appreciate the anime more. I mean, this just further fuels my conspiracy theory of the government trying to keep us ignorant. >
Regarding official subtitles, I dislike how some American companies try to "Americanize" their imported anime by changing what is actually said in Japanese that are sometimes very important to the plot (Sailor Moon, anyone?). And often times, when dubbing, they add or remove words and phrases from the original Japanese script to match up to the mouth movements of the anime characters, and they use the same script for the official subs! Dx
Ah, besides, who am I to complain about fellow fans subbing my anime for free. I wouldn't even mind if a lazy subber just ran what he heard through a translating program, I'd still worship at that person's feet for it. ^^
This makes me question what I've become to like in Anime. I've gotten used to the fansubs that it affected the way I see official translations of anime. Like the term "Shinigami" over "Death Gods" but Zanpaktou does sound cooler than "Soul Cutter" ,which sounds so emo.
One might suggest that all those little (but obtrusive) notes are there to retain the cultural nuances from Japanese which Ive been indoctrinated to prefer because of fansubs. Another thing that they argue for referring to oneself in 3rd person, which is acceptable in Japanese culture(if I am not mistaken), is that charcter is a bit low in the IQ department so they keep using the 3rd person thing but that may not be viewed the same in Japanese.
About the karaoke thing, the effects are nice but fansubs groups have indeed taken it a bit too far. Hopefully this brings great change in the way we watch anime. This changes the way I see anime, both subbed and dubbed, the same way again.
@God Len
David Hayter was narrating all these videos in my mind.
I find it hilarious that he picked out two key phrases to highlight some of the "problems" in fansubs; "selective bullshit" and "hypocritical". When his entire argument was just that.
The one thing I hate most about fansubs is the insistence among larger groups to use special effects in the subtitles. I don't like karaoke titles having weird glows or attack names having stupid lights all over. I just want plain, unstyled, undistracting text like those on a DVD. Is that too much to ask for?
Accutally on retail DVDs the subs don't look good. The subtitles are always in white or yellow blocky pixelated text. I always watch the dub if possible on retail DVDs for that reason.
Then again when there are signs shown written in Japanese the blocky text appears even in the dub sometimes.
I think the licensing companies could learn from fansubs, they should use clear good quality text in colours that aren't always bright and obtrusive. And when there are signs I think they should use colours that match the text.
I understand his point about the sometimes awkward english, but frankly I'm generally fine with that. I understand it, and I'm getting it for free! I shouldn't expect anyone to work there but off perfectly to provide me with entertainment if I'm not even contributing.
This fellow seems to be an elitist.
It's a pirate medium. Do you actually expect people to take time and translate the hundreds of episodes a serial let alone the industry spits out into proper English? If you want proper English, read a book. People translate stuff to get their own egos lifted and/or just want people to understand what's going on in any given show. Those who can't do, teach. If he wants to dick around and bash fansubbers a real film maker would bash his little Windows Movie Maker video. It has so many amateur mistakes in it beyond stealing Music. I hope he's not trying to pass this off as an actual documentary. The Fair Use Act (google it) alone is broken by using over 99% copyrighted material. His lack of voice over talent and poor composition. Don't even get me started on the crap drawings he passed off as animation. Good god, this video is a waste, just some noob rants. This dude needs to spend more time with girls, too much animation and downloading takes up this "professional" translators time.
I'm an old-school anime fan and I actually like the new fan sub approach. A large part of my interest in anime and foreign films is the cultural disparity. I like that most fan subs try to maintain cultural integrity. The notes popping in are sometimes useful, such as the instance in Macross Frontier which noted that the song playing was from Macross 7; sometimes the notes presented are irrelevant. I say let the viewer decide. Viewers used to subtitles are faster at processing words and deciding what to pay attention to. Sadly, I find far too many DVDs have dubtitles or are heavily Americanized and I'm not a fan of that. Anime should be treated with the same level ofrespect as foreign films.
That said, if a fan sub I enjoyed is released officially, I definitely buy it.
I'm sort of in the middle ground. I watch BLEACH's fansubs, and I really love the translator's notes (especially for the translation of Zanpakutou names and Arrancar terms).
As for the honorific suffixes that get on people's nerves... it does get a little weeaboo at times. -san is easily translated to "Mr/Ms," -sama easily translated to "Lord/Lady", and -kun, -chan, and -tan are easily translatable to turning "Jennifer" to "Jen," "Jenny," and "Jenny-Jenny-I-fap-to-you." =P
This guy is no different from the multitude of fansubbers who take their hobby too seriously to the point they believe they are the only ones with right a idea.
While Otaking is right about lack of professionalism in fansubbing groups, keep in mind these groups our made up of varied age groups as 12-40+, and are just that, fans. For him to honestly stand up and say fansub groups were more serious about their translation than they are now, is ridiculous and just another example of self-hating fansubbers who think everyone in the community is doing wrong except them.
Honestly honorifics and translation of special moves have always and I mean always been a cause for debate even during the 90s.
Now of course my fansubbing experience is limited to early 2000s (between 2000-2005). I was QC'er during those times for numerous fansub groups. This during the time when digital fansubs became possible and common place.
Even now fansubbers still quarrel over whether to keep honorifics or translate special attacks. What Otaking is whining about is still something that currently still an issue among translators.
The difference now compared to the early-mid 90s is that there are a lot more fansub groups therefore many different policies regarding translating. Anyone that has worked with translators or speak multiple language can tell you that translation isnt' easy and they are many grey areas. I don't question this guys experience, but it seems he's painting a broad brush on a community that still experiences they same problems they use to 20 year ago.
Otaking is just another translators with different opinion about subbing, no different than many other translators that still do work today. Things haven't really changed that much. If anything what has change is this feeling of entitlement by the does who consume fansubs. The need to release a show before another fansub group or the need to stake your claim on a particular show.
Fighting over prime anime shows and beating out releases before the competition is something relatively knew, that has created a lot of drama in the fansub community. If anything these are the major problems plaguing fansubs.
Translation policy is just another issue that has plagued the community for years.
IN my opinion Otaking is just another whiny geek that feels things were better back then. IN all honesty I love the time we live in. HD encodes, broadband internet, friendly fansub group competition, I love it all.
BTW anyone that has had to encode a anime show in HD like Chevalier or Ergo proxy can atest that its hard to find a person with the necessary equipment, because encoding HD ain't easy, you need really fast rig and lots of time. There has been many cases that HD releases would be behind schedule because a encoder with a good rip was lost in the ether of time/laziness or pc keeps crashing at 99%.
Sure things are different now since 1992, but to say that fansubs have fallen from grace and now SOLELY pander to either stupidty or weebo-ism is ridiculous. There are many translators in the fansub community who are proud of their work and believe their way of translation is better than others.
Also I would like to say that shit was exactually worst in early 2000 when fansub groups exploded to the hundreds and everyone and their grandmother started subbing. Just like when a kid discovers neon colored markers or 12 year old girl discovers myspace, people went overboard with over the top karoke and subititle text animation. Things have definitely cooled down since then.
For me, Otaking sounds like one of those disgruntled translators in the late 90s early 2000s who whined when fansubing became easy enough for any Dirt Joe to do it (which in all honesty was NOT THE CASE). Those people generally feel like their special and that the current crop of fansubbers have it too easy and are REAL FANS because they didn't have to work hard to do their hobby, (which is bullshit by the way).
We can argue about what way is the best way to Translate till the cows come home and no one will win and this has been the case for 20 something years of fansubbing. Not everyone agreed with Otaking during 90s.
Fansubbing is not dead because of weeboo translations nor is professionalism something that is only possible by "licensed subbers" or those fansubbers from the 90s. Otaking's only valid point is that there is a change concerning the relationship between consumer and fansubber.
In the end fansubbers do what they do because of love and commitment for their hobby. Sure some of them do it for the internet lime-light but many people do it so that others can enjoy anime in their prospective language. Just because Otaking use to sub in the 90s (i'm assuming thats why he's so angry) and has a certain policy concernign translation doesn't mean that those who translate now dont' have valid policies concerning translation. Again not everyone had the same views as Otaking concerning translations back in the 90s, hence reason why things are the way they are are now.
*Note: Professional Anime DVD subs look like ass compared to fansub subtitles. Due to resolution frame restrictions on dvds releases it causes subs to look so pixelated. While fansub subtitles look cleaner, sharper, and less like stuff that came out in 1995. I can't argue about quality of translation, but they sure need figure out how to make subs look cleaner, especially on a HD tv. If i'm spending money those sub text better look nice.
Some of that is really just nit picking. He does have points, the rest is just some guy pissed off. While all the flashy distracting stuff is... distracting, being pissy about basic japanese terms and honorifics is stupid. If you're going through the trouble to download fansubs, you're so much of a nerd that you're going to know what "sensei" means.
Its like bitching at a manga that decides to keep honorifics in for the sake of keeping the experience authentic. Just for instance, Delrey has a few pages at the beginning of each volume of Air Gear saying that they decided to keep honorifics in and explain what each one means.
At first I thought this was going to be something interesting, not some old anime fan bitching on how new age anime looks and feels. I like the ending and opening song subtitles so I can understand whats being said because like 98% of anime fans I DONT SPEAK JAPANESE! Also adding English words next to japanese katana or kanji is a big help because I cant read japanese. Things are added to help us understand whats going on, and if that takes away from "the original japanese audience version" so be it. I wont watch it if i cant read it.
Ha,knowing damn well this will start a debate (a small one at that). Now this little man's ego can sit doe eyed and read people commenting on the issue. What's next fandubbing and how people can't voice act well?
This video is just an opinion of someone who can't be creative and thinking inside of a box that people have built for him. Is fansubbing a traditional subtitling practice, No. Never was meant to be, remember the old "fans for fans" deal? The act of translating is there, be it direct or not.
No one has the right to dictate what's right for everyone. If you aren't happy with a certain fansub don't watch it, it's actually outside of the law of digital media rights just to have them. If you actually want to start picking at shit. Please don't call this a documentary. It doesn't document, it's a guy who feels he's the fansub super critic.
Once again, way too much free time. I think a better video would have been about "Professional style subtitling vs Modern Day DIY subtitling" or so, that's a documentary, not someone who feels the need to bash things because they were taught one linear way of doing something. "It's clean looking" who gives a shit!?
Time to watch some crunchyroll Welcome to the N.H.K. HA!
I'll also point out that the companies licensing anime aren't doing it as much out of caring for the people who want to watch it, as they are doing it because it's a hot market and people will give them money for their work. Fansubbers often do harder work better for free because it is a hobby that they have invested interest in.
Obviously the guy hasn't seen mininova or animesuki. Fansubs will die only when anime stops being made, or they provide same-week free translations of all anime.
so if fansubs are dying and fansubs are in turn killing the legal anime industry than does that mean anime in the west is dying overall? (I kid, I kid)
I like the karaoke because it gives you to option to sing along (no one says you have to).
I like the translator's notes because I learn a little bit of something from watching my shows (no one says you have to read them, and watching on computer = ability to pause and rewind).
I like selective translation because yes, certain terms and phrases do lose their original meaning and 'feel' when you translate them into another language (Shakespeare wouldn't be Shakespeare even if it was in plain modern-day English, and it's still the same language).
I would prefer plan white/yellow sub text. But c'mon people, these subbers are trying to give the series an added dimension while providing us lazy and cheap a**holes a service, FREE of charge. So be grateful.
it wasnt until episode 19 of higurashi no naku koro ni that i realized that the subs i was watching were colorcoded to the character. soon as i realized it.."man...thats pretty cool, i guess"
To put my analysis of the imposter Otaking's simply, I agree that translator notes shouldn't be hardcoded into the main video stream and some groups do a baroque job on their fonts, but almost everything else he says is just being plain anal.
(yes, he's an imposter: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-11-13/american-otaking-steve-pearl-passes-away)
Regardless of all of what this guy says, I know of a way that will make ANY OF YOU HERE HAPPY and both sides calm down.
There's a type of video packaging called OGM and Matroska. These video types allow for multiple text, video, and audio streams. Therefore, why not put the translation notes in another text stream so people can choose to turn them on and off? Just like DVDs choosing English or Japanese w/subs!....It's not hard to do.
I can actually understand his argument somewhat since I'm trilingual (English, Japanese, and Bad English), but I think he's missing the real overall issue lately that people argue in fansubs.
The real issue as of late concerning fansubs has been between those who want localization and those who want pure literal translations. In this argument, I think Jack Wiedrick (a senior translator from former Newtype USA) said it best in his article entitled "Literal Schimiteral" which was in the June issue of Piq (I was rather surprised...something good in Piq!?).
Basically the anime purists (as we'll call them for now) think that to localize something is to damage or completely alter the original material, a similar idea of "Japanese being a holy language" but a bit more sense than that.
What people don't realize is that literal translations lose TONS of meaning especially in the case of Japanese, since idioms, nuances, and cultural interpretation of the same words are totally different over there than here.
Ultimately Mr. Wiedrick explains when the Japanese create a show, they expect it to give a certain feeling and have a certain culturally-relative meaning or emotion attached, and so they create it with the average Japanese person in mind (who are much more knowledgeable on their own culture than most fansub translators).
The point he makes is that when a show is translated, the intention should be to give the same feelings and culturally-relative meaning as the original, not to just spit out words in English that don't carry the same meaning that the original creator's intended.
I highly recommend reading the article to anyone that is seriously interested in this topic. It's on page 94 of the June 2008 issue.
He is pretty much right. All thought I can't never be a fansubber, not know any Japanese or and being rally bad at English. I don't mind color text especially if it for different characters.
Personally I like watching things in English so I don't even have to read.
ok before anyone gets made though let me express my views
I don't think fansubs are killing the domestic industry (nor do I think fansubs are them themselves dying), but piracy as a whole IS hurting it, however I'd be a total hypocrite if I outright condemned it because I'm guilty of downloading anime myself (heck even some DUBBED series!) and that's because anime is very expensive, very hard to find and I just don't have the cash
and I think the domestic companies should come up with alternate ways of releasing anime, I defiantly support the idea of a website where you can stream anime for free (but have to watch ads of course) and stuff
Man, I take a vacation and I miss this little gem? :3
Wow, somebody has a stick up their ass. Oh, and the rampant hypocracy of his own speech ("Dragon punch" is kosher, but so is "Hadouken?" :B). I didn't get through this whole thing (halfway through pt.3), though I'll take other comments that it's more or less the same thing. Seriously, who cares? I never did, or at the very least, it was never a big deal to me. It's one thing to get down on people who simply don't translate well, but the advent of fansub stylization was never something that particularly bugged me.
Fansubs, I believe are a better way to watch anime, because of the translator notes. If you've ever watched the sub and dub in Bleach, you were probably screaming obscenities at how wrong everything was. There was this one part where someone explained why ratings were down because of some holiday; the ENTIRE THING was skipped in the dub. Whenever there's a piece of text on the screen (or that part where Kon says "Crap, Crap, Crap" over and over again) it's not translated and completely ignored.
I'm not saying that sub are better than dubs (cuz I like me some dubs), but I think on a whole subs are a little more accurate and helpful for us partial otaku.
fansubs are sometimes of higher quality then the official ones.
i remember watching Kanonkon last year and some time i would just watch raws because the subs were horrific........ its sad
44 comments
*raises hand*
It is the height of petty hypocrisy for me to argue that any fan of anything short of the ones who stab people out of fannish love should find something constructive to do, so I'll just skirt it and say that if you want a quality fansub, either do it yourself or find one of several very good groups amidst the displeasing ones. Simple.