It should be said that it's not so much the UN as it is the extremist feminist wing of the UN.

Fuck I hate 3D women sometimes.

Fucking eurofag politicians - their Feminazism policy drafting makes Hitler's Third Reich seem sane at times...

ye know, this kind of thing is what 4chan and anon are perfect for to protest against ~_~

"For the rights of women"? Are you telling me now virtual/drawn women have rights now! OMFG MY PICTURE HAS RIGHTS NOW!

Although, what about the rights of men? I'm sick and tired of seeing men get beat up in anime, how about we switch it around and have women get the crap beaten out of them instead?

Also why is it always the women beating down on the men in anime!? I think men should be seen beating women more often in anime!

I HEREBY FOUND THE CEDAM! FIGHT FOR THE RIGHTS OF MEN MY BROTHERS!

"ye know, this kind of thing is what 4chan and anon are perfect for to protest against..."

Normally I'd be able to agree with such a great misuse of anonymous internet-hate-machinery, but with their current exploits against the Cult of Scientology and whatnot I'd doubt that any anti-anonymous groups need more fuel against legion...

A ban on entertainment that features "rape and sexual violence"? I think it sounds pretty hard to defend that sort of stuff, even if you *are* into ero games. I mean, I don't really see any problem with the Japanese government at least looking into the possibility of some sort of regulation. (A ban is a little too harsh in my opinion, but I understand the desire to do SOMETHING.)

The problem is that once there is regulation, politicians and judges will run into the always volatile question of obscenity, as we saw here in the U.S. with the Chris Handley trial. I'm okay with rape or sexual violence used in some sort of legitimate way for storytelling (like, if a character is raped and that is something that defines her personality in later scenes), but I would also like to see some regulations on rape/sexual violence used for titillation. Somebody else might decide that any rape is inexcusable, whether used in a story for legitimate or illegitimate purposes. And what can we define as "legitimate artistic merit" anyway?

One of my other reasons for at least partially supporting this suggestion is that, while ero games featuring a positive image of rape might not cause real rape, they do represent (and, debatably, promote) a mindset that it's somehow "okay" to do things like that to women. I certainly hope nobody here is actually defending THAT mindset.

The UN says alot of things. Not everything they say is followed thru.

The Yakuza must be loving all of this. All this regulation is going to do is to drive this type of media underground where the Yakuza know best how to profit from it. The same thing happens anytime you attempt to prohibit a vice.

I do not play or even condone reap games or even loli-con. But I do know that this isn't a crime and there is no victim. There is also no proof that the VAST majority of people that use this stuff ever act it out in real life. Sure, you have mentally deficient people that can be influenced but they are a miniscule in number.

The only thing that prohibition encourages is organized crime. It happened when alcohol was banned in the US, it happened as illicit drugs were banned, and it grew exponentially when Nixon started the War on Drugs. Government regulation of these vices is not the cure, it is the problem. You're just encouraging people to rebel when you tell them that they can't have something.

I don't get this. If they ban a damn video game because video game characters are having sex and what not, why wouldn't they ban porn?

It's like banning God of War but not a film like 300.

Guys, remember, this is the goddamn UN we're talking about. When was the last time they were actually able to act on a threat they made? Sure, they talk big, but they rarely actually get shit done.

Still, it worries me that an issue like this even got the attention of the UN in the first place. It means that they're not focusing on things that actually matter, you know, like people dying all over the world because of genocide and war.

How about this? If the UN can bring world peace, stop the genocide in Darfur, and become an effective multi-national organization, then they can start crucifying eroge.

this is bull

@Gee-Man: As hard as this might be to believe, there are quite a lot of people in the U.N. talking about a lot of different things. Just because somebody brought up gender issues and their relationship with Japanese cartoon porn doesn't mean that nobody is talking about genocide or poverty.

@Vampt Vo- Heh, don't take my comment too literally, I just wanted to comment on the UN's overall uselessness. I'm aware that the UN probably has many people working on many different issues, and it's a good thing they're trying. It's just easy to poke fun at the UN when they're so clearly inept.

@Gee-Man and Vampt Vo: The sad thing is that Japan is a country that might actually listen to the UN. The only places and issues where the UN is effective are minor quirks in developed nations that don't really need international policing.

If the UN was serious about preventing sexual abuse, they'd pull the handful of interns they've assigned to Japan and put them to work with everyone else on Darfur. This is a misappropriation of funds. "Equality Now" could put their money to way better use.

I'll just quote what I said in the comments section of the article about the UK banning a torture porn movie:
"I hate how being a fan of video games or anime these days means you have to defend depraved shit. I mean,yes,I understand how 14 year olds might be like "ZOMG you adults are hypocritical how do you ban EXPRESSION!!" and I do believe people should be free to express themselves through art and stuff,but things like this are obviously just shallow cashgrabs.
So yeah,I know I'm supposed to be all "OH NOES CENSORSHIP SLIPPERY SLOPE" but I can't bring myself to feel bad that a rape movie is going to make less money."

I feel the same way about this game ban. I mean,I know I'm supposed to support artists' rights and shit,but come on-we're talking about COMPUTER GAMES WITH PORNO. I mean,it's pretty hard to publicly defend something that would shame me for the rest of my days if I owned it. We're talking about video games in which you rape chicks. Why defend it?

They know this crap will raise a shitstorm of astronomic proportions, either bad or good, and will make them known all around the world. I'm sick of feminazis giving good hard-working women a bad reputation and violating equal rights.

@Kid Nicky

If you feel the same way as the commenter you quoted, you should already know why you should be defending it.

In case you don't, try reading Jim Sterling's piece on Destructoid about the very same subject.

@Kid Nicky: you're looking at it the wrong way. Defend all freedom of expression, even the ones that you don't like. By saying "yeah censorship is bad, EXCEPT ON THIS" you're doing the exact same thing this oppressing groups are doing: allowing only what THEY want to be expressed and oppressing everybody into it.

I'll defend the creation and selling of Rapelay not because I condone rape, but because I defend the freedom of expression to make such a game. I'll defend the right to make whatever fiction anyone wants, whether I like it or not.

That's what you're supposed to defend, freedom of speech, freedom of expression.

sometimes you have to defend expression even if you don't like it.

@Kid Nicky: Just because you would be ashamed of it does not make it impossible to defend, and it's practically a personal attack on the worldwide "eroge community" that you said it is. In fact, personal attacks are nearly all you've presented as reasoning against the defense of eroge, which...makes your own point hard to defend, honestly.
I hope this negotiation ends quickly without getting anywhere. Honestly, there are a million better ways the UN should be spending its time. To paraphrase someone's earlier post, once they deal with world peace, poverty etc. then they can find themselves justified dealing with these interest groups that are just looking for ways to get offended.

people should have the freedom to play these games and make them. They don't hurt anyone. It's about freedom of expression. Banning it won't fix anything, all it will do is make people want this stuff more and they will find a way to get it. They'll just waste money trying to regulate this.

Hooray censorship... fucking christ

I'm fine with rape stuff being banned, but the moment they start worrying about just plain eroges with no rape is when I will have to do something.

@kamanashi:
First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,
and by that time
there was no one left to speak up for me.

Uh guys-I've heard all the slippery slope bullshit before,and I'm sorry,I just don't see it ever affecting anything I'd care to enjoy.

The problem with stuff like this is it's hard to stand up for it IRL without looking like a total perv, even if you could care less about rape eroge and are more concerned with free speech violations.

Poor Jim Sterling on Destructoid got hit with all sorts of bullshit for merely standing up for basic freedom of speech.

Anyways I seriously wish I could just go into whatever meeting where this bullshit is being discussed and scream: "THIS SHIT ISN'T REAL PEOPLE - IT'S FUCKING CARTOONS MAN! GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASSES!"

Honestly, from rape eroge, it really isn't that far of a stretch Kid Nicky...

OK so rape games get banned? Sounds reasonable. Rape is illegal so simulated rape should be illegal?

Well murder is illegal? Why shouldn't GTA be illegal?

Another scenario:

Simulated rape in video games is illegal. Why should it be legal to be depicted in movies, even for artistic purposes?



Of course I don't know what your definition of "things you care to enjoy are" - maybe you are amish or something (what are you doing using a computer!) so if thats the case I guess this wouldn't effect you.

@Kid Nicky

That's the point. You've already heard the slippery slope, and are supremely confident that nothing you ever value or enjoy will ever offend anyone. You have nothing to worry about. You knew the answer to the question before you even asked it.

Okay:

1: Sex is not bad for you, and it shouldn't be denied and turned into this great big taboo and repressed.

2: It's not real people. So it's not real, people! Same as with other video games.

3: Hentai and H-games can't be stopped anyway. There's a whole Internet out there, with doujin and freeware publishing and random artists and programmers everywhere. So,

4: The laws can't be enforced, even if the UN agrees on something.

Does this sum things up pretty well?

*facepalms at title*

d00d.... it's ban on LOLICON eroge.

Not eroge in general.

Oh sure, some people will get on my back and say all eroge is loli, which I will then ask:

(1) What about milf tendencies ?

(2) What about women who are not milf but still somewhat older ?

(3) What about normal women above the age of 18 who don't look loli at all ?

My problem with the title is that it screams publicity with a claim to exaggerated. Yes, it is severe they may want an overall ban on Loli H, but its not as if they're going to outright ban eroge altogether.

I repeat: THE TITLE IS MISLEADING.

Sure, go after the imaginary people and avoid dealing with the real life porn industry (which I might add has some pretty sick stuff out there, a butthole is supposed to be one way, not two.) It's pretty silly stuff, just what are you going to do with the imaginary people, send them to therapy? Honestly, if they can't stand it in the imaginary sense, then what about all the books and movies that have a character that's been raped or molested? Frankly if this was to press through, I'd like to see some hard evidence, or a study at least proving that other countries that have a ban on such items have a lower rape, child moslesting, etc. rates. I agree with the Destructoid article about Rapelay, and it's a damn good argument.

AFTER READING THE ABOVE, I HAVE DECIDED TO GIVE MY THOUGHTS ON THIS WHOLE DEBACLE

Btw, concerning this whole thing about censorship, and I know I'll be the advocatus diaboliis here, but I might as well add in my two cents worth:

@Yaku on this statement:

>only what THEY want to be expressed and oppressing everybody into it.

Here's the thing: now, I admit that I come from a country that practices censorship very heavily and reins in on free speech most of the time, and I'm somewhat influenced by reading Plato (in regards to censorship), but I really have no problem with that statement.

Or banning of Rapelay.

Think of it this way: if you are a true proponent of Free Speech, you would allow the propagation of materials/brochures that allow the access to ideologies of Islamic Fundamentalism/NDSAP Fascism/de Sade Sadism... and so on and so forth.

And, to take it a step further, you would also allow the formation of such groups into power, as well as the existence of such groups to go about coercing their fellow neighbours into believing their ideology by force.

In fact, if I wanted the extreme, I could easily say that, as a believe of Free Speech, I believe that the concepts of murder, rape and even other humans are just imaginary constructs of an individual mind, and the individual has the liberty to do whatever he wants, as any laws to defend any such imaginary constructs are exactly that: imaginary.

The thing about the slippery slope is that it works both ways. Yes, we can all go down the route of further restrictions and hardships under a totalitarian control of our media. But likewise, we can end having a media that can create too many wild and insidious factions.

Lines have to be drawn. The only questions is: where, and on what.

~~

I have nothing against loli eroge. I have nothing against the loli body, provided the animated person really is some 18 year old who happens to have some grwoth defect.

Yes, you can all tell me it is fiction. But assuming you are familiar with physics, and/or the concept of parallel universes, you would know that universes independent of ours exist, and thus fiction is real, even in and of itself ( why else can fiction be able to move us to tears or make us laugh ? ) Videogames, as of late, has represented the interactive element of the story, such that we can interact the story, but the story, fundamentally remains the same.

Admittedly, I have nothing against the permittence of the potrayal of rape/murder/any other violation in an eroge (or any medium, for that fact) if it retains the moral taint of the act. I enjyoed D.O.'s Crescendo (and it has been licensed), and that game had a rape scene. But thing, the act was not condoned and was shown to be morally reprehensible.

You could say I look too idealistically at it, but that's how I see it. What makes some people get off to seeing fictitous acts of sexual violation (Rapelay), or enjoy fictionalized accounts of criminal behaviour (GTA) ? Heck, I enjoy the King of Fighter series , Dynasty Warriors, the entirety of Command & Conquer and Blizzard, Super Mario, Half-Life, Deus Ex, and goodness knows how many games, but I just can't enjoy those two games, or games like those.

And I tell you why: I just feel restricted from the fact that I am restricted to only do bad behaviour in such games.

Yes, I am against the larger project or banning all eroge, or even all lolicon eroge. But defending rape eroge ? I'm afriad that's a bit too much for me.

"AFTER READING THE ABOVE, I HAVE DECIDED TO GIVE MY THOUGHTS ON THIS WHOLE DEBACLE"

I loled :p

Well, I got my own viewpoints :P

Anyway, this is a disclaimer, and while I know a lot would view what I wrote about as a whole wall-of-text of inanity (at least within the context of this site), it was a reaction to the comments I read above.

I bet some of you have not met a feminist, or even know them personally outside what you've read of more extreme versions of some acts. I am against the proposal drawn up in their doctrine concering "silly fantasies", but I'd like to remind all that this is coming from women who are against the portrayal of the 'submissive women' in any form, even fictional. And it's not as if they are against to real world subjugation of women, it's just that they take their fight all round. If anything, the feminist war on pornography is aprt of their larger project of stopping the subjugation of women:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_pornography

Of course, there are also feminists who support and defend pornogrpahy, but I won't be surprised if the version of pronography they defend is that of the empowered woman.

In short, while I condemn the doctrine, I am also saddened by the lack of understanding of the feminist mind. It is not as if these people don't have a reason behind their actions.

But, of course, that is like saying the religious extremists believe what they're doing is right.

Simply put, yay for eroge and yay for women's rights. Now here's the thing, I think these women and the UN are missing: Eroge is mothereffing fiction! Why are you getting so tensed up over this? It's freaking anime version Buggs Bunny doing it to Lola Bunny. They aren't real so why in the hell do you care? While yes I can admit that both eroge and any other form of porn have some sick things, eroge would be the best to leave alone. This particular case doesn't really affect me since I don't like the violent eroge cuz the whole hitting/cutting/etc. a person doesn't "turn me on" I still think this another undeserved shot at artistic expression. Why can't something be fun or erotic (like Mortal Kombat or Hentai) without people like the FCC trying to overly regulate it? Speaking of which though, if they wanted to add a few more regulations on this sort of thing I think that could be a reasonable demand.

Oh and one more thing, some feminist truly need to shut up. They complain about women being submissive and men having power, but realize two things. 1. In real life some women truly do like being submissive so people sometimes portray it idiot. 2. Men are made to be submissive sometimes too, so its not all one sided like you want it to be.
But I do realize that people will have different different mindsets. Some feminist have a a tragic backstory and see pornography as "one of the many evils of this world" and I think thats bull and that they should just let people similar to myself enjoy my women that can fight for themselves and the submissive ones.

I saw this headline in Google Reader, but it was cut off, so it read "United Nations recommends h-game."

Kyonshiro hit the nail on the head in regards to my own opinion on the issue. If your game uses rape as a way to show the depravity of the act, fine. But if your game has you raping a 12-year-old girl in first-person and being rewarded for it, then free expression goes out the window in my mind. That particular game should NOT exist, plain and simple. There needs to be a boundary somewhere, and that is where I draw the line.

After all, we already ban children from reading pornography here in the U.S. We've drawn a line there in regards to porn, so why isn't everybody complaining about the slippery slope? If you are a true defender of free expression, shouldn't you defend the rights of people to create porn for 8-year-olds?

And finally, to everybody defending free speech, please remember that, in reality, no one's speech is completely free. Try yelling "fire" in a crowded theater or "bomb" on a plane and you'll understand that the words you say and the ideas you express have power, whether or not you actually started a fire or are in possession of a bomb.

it seems like all the opinions came from males. where are the females :p

@Kyonshiro: parallel universe arguments? let's just try to stick to this one please. After all, in another universe you could be arguing for a completely different viewpoint on this, and, well, it just becomes a bit too.... ridiculous in the amount of possibilites. Fiction affects us because its a form of escapism from reality, and takes our imagination to a place where some people would rather be than here. It invokes that sense of "the possibilities are endless", at least that's the closest I can describe how I feel about fiction's effects.

There are groups of people that get off to sexual fantasies of a rape and enjoy going around towns destroying everything in sight. It is a fantasy, and I for one would rather have people express their fantasies through playing a video game rather than doing it in real life.

Having people doing their fantasies in a game is incredibly preferable to real life enactments. And completely limiting the expression of an author so that women's groups who DON'T EVEN PLAY these games can feel good about themselves for 2 seconds before they start b*tching about the next thing that's annoying them? Goddamn*t UN, not only are you incapable of enforcing anything militarily, you let yourself get pushed around by some of the silliest groups in the world. At this rate we might have to start calling you the League of Nations 2.0...

Oh, and having read feminist literature a lot in high school due to the nature of two of my teachers, I can tell you that IMO its debatable how "empowering" their movement is of women, in and of itself, if that's the kind of crap they would use to represent themselves. Empowerment of women should be raising women to the equal level of men, not on an oppressive pedestal as they commonly like to express it.

This whole thing reminds me of a strange incident in Guild Wars (an MMO I play, some of you may know of it). In the Nightfall expansion, near the beginning of the game, there are some enemy prisoners that you can use as practice targets for various spells and skills that you learn. Some uptight anon ranted on the Guild Wars Wiki about how torture of prisoners violates the Geneva Convention (which, last I knew of, the nation of Istan did not agree to) and later complained directly to the game designers. In the end, NCsoft and ArenaNet gave in on this, turning the "Corsair Prisoner" into a "Sunspear Volunteer", as if volunteering yourself for torture is any worse when you can kill these targets.
These are fictional females this group is trying to support; they don't even exist. At least in the Guild Wars case there was the argument that her child was being subjected to this material she deemed "too mature" for her child (it's a 13+ game, seriously? Raise your kid better or don't let him play) but here, damn, you would KNOW what you're getting into buying this game. RAPE is in the NAME.
@DGX Goggles: Exactly! They don't play these games, or have to see them unless they make a big deal about them.

What the hell, I come home to find it didn't go through?

@kyonshiro: tl;dr (JK, I did read it =D).

>>>And, to take it a step further, you would also allow the formation of such groups into power, as well as the existence of such groups to go about coercing their fellow neighbours into believing their ideology by force.

Wrong, sir. As long as what they do DOESN'T ENCROACH other people's rights then they can make voodoo dolls or whatever; using force to make people do something isn't implementing your freedom of speech since their own right of freedom of speech is being taken away from them. In other words that's just being a damn bully.

Fiction:
The class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, esp. in prose form.
Something feigned, invented, or imagined; a made-up story.
An imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.

Concept:
A general notion or idea; conception of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct.
A directly conceived or intuited object of thought.

concept of parallel universes? What are you trying to pull with this? if you are saying that the "people" and everything happening within fiction is indeed real (so, all those drawings and comics I drew are real people) and it can be proved and has feelings on its own, then maybe we're entering the ridiculous argument zone. Let's stick to what happens to flesh, breathing beings in OUR universe, alright?

You say that a line must be drawn, well then who will draw it? who will tell anyone what they're supposed to think, read or draw? I might as well draw a line too and ban stuff you like because some "offends me". I don't know you, but as an adult I'm old enough to know what I don't wanna see or watch and that reality doesn't equal fantasy.

The solution is very simple: don't like it? don't watch it, don't read it, don't play it. Nobody is forcing anyone to play eroge. Nobody is forcing anyone to plat GTA. Nobody is forcing me to read Twilight, which I believe is a horrible mary-sue fanfic people are paying too much to read. But hey, it's a person's choice, not anyone else's.

I understand plenty the reasons behind their actions because I'm a woman, but that doesn't mean I'll let them go around stomping on my freedom of speech. Those are not feminists, those are feminazis. Besides I rather protect real living women who are suffering right now, not some idea slapped on a paper or digital information.

@matrixdude : Problem is, it depends on what element of fiction you ascribe that trait too.

To be honest, I never view fiction as pure escapism. Even the act of resorting to writing or partaking in some form of escapism hails from a real-world desire grounded on some emotion, or some ideal.

@DGX Googles: from what I remember, McCain wanted to make a 'League of Democracy'. It looks like it could well happen again. Gosh darn it.

@yaku: Well, thank you for reading through that wall of inanity (yes, I myself feel it was one). Now for my following inane response.

First up, here's the thing: freedom of speech can easily allow the belief that such rules that prevent others from enroaching into other's beliefs are, well, oppressive on their own. Of course, you could say that such ideas are contrary to the spirit of free speach, but, the paradox remains.

As for parallel universes, I'm not trying to pull anything. Within physics and philosophy, there is talk about possible worlds in various forms of thought, ranging from Everett's parallel universe theory to David Lewis's modal realism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possible_world

All that would be tl;dr, and while it is so easy to argue for the pragmatic concern that our immediate world is the world that we should be concerned with, the fact remains that those worlds are real. And yes, a lot of people may find it ridiculous, but I take that line of argumentations eriously. Oh sure, tentacled monsters aren't going to jump out underneath anyone's chair at any moment, but that's a different matter.

It is a tl;dr, but a fictituous story about a woman, who lives in Manhattan, was raped in an alleyway and left for dead amongst a number of eyewitnesses is no different from the true life account of Kitty Genovese. If I had to take the fantasy account further, the latest District 9 is, for all intent and purposes, an absurdist take on apartheid. Absurdist, yes, but apartheid.

As to who draws the line, the answer is obvious: the power players. The problem is where and what to draw the line on their side, and from the looks of it, they have been influenced by Equality Now! to the extreme. I am against the extereme aspects of it, but not the more stringent rules of censorship.

And yes, no one is forcing me to play GTA. Or to read the books of the marquis de Sade or Salmen Rushdie's Satanic Verses. I'm not sure about de Sade, but I know that Rushdie recieved death threats and now lives under protection, and the book is banned in my country (Singapore), even though, yes, it's a work of fiction, and, yes, the Muslims find it detrimental, even though they only make up 30% of the population.

I could easily argue that it's a work of fiction and already criticise my own country's lack of freedom of speech, but, in light of the context, I am fine and even support it. Around here, racial tension has existed before, and while it would seem silly to have to consider the whims of the major races and religions, it has that level of censorship and control that maintained the peace in our area. Of course, I am speaking for my culture (and not others), but I'm not adverse to the idea of censorship (even though I'm not adverse to the idea of defying it)

Yes, Equality Now! are more feminazis then feminists. And I do agree with you that is better to protect real living women who are suffering from real persecution than more fictituous accounts of it (mainly for pragmatic purposes). However, I am also aware that some feminists may argue that the larger project of feminism lies beyond not just protecting women's interests within the real world, but also the depiction of women in fiction. Fiction, even as a story, reflects our attitudes and beliefs within the real world, especially since not too many people go for far-out and over-the-top fantasies.

An action plan is needed to reverse the allegation that CEDAW is proposing. However, if the concession is that rape games are prohibited, I do not mind seeing it through. That, is my stance on it.

The super-great thing about this is that they think they can =/

First off, you guys are idiots to steal and edit a picture and post it here. Original: http://caidychen.deviantart.com/art/My-working-Studio-XD-126566273

Second of all, "for the rights of females"? This is so incredibly stupid. I'm a female myself, and I've never cared about the freakin' porn games with rape, etc. Hell, I never even cared about that tentacle rape fetish. Genuine child porn is okay to ban or whatever, so I'm going to have to agree with you on that. Anyway, my point is is (yay, doubles!) that this is so incredibly pointless and stupid.

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