Rising (3+)
People you follow
not your type of game it seems. honestly i hate western rpgs, even this is far better than fallout, to me. different genres completely really. i think the biggest downfall jrpg genre is the cost to make games. ps2 generation it was several hundred thousand dollars to make a game, this generation to make a game that doesnt look last gen it cost millions, and usually it's not worth that much to make a non-big name rpg. they should just make 2d rpgs and release them on psn and we'll all be happy
I'm with Kougeru on this one, it clearly seems like you had no chance in hell to like this game, even a little. I haven't played the localized version (I imported mine last year), but I thought this game brought a bit of fresh air in a genre that desperately needed some. And the voices were great by the way, I don't know what you'Re talking about. :P
I've been loving this game, actually. Not as good as previous Atelier games, but it's still great to see a unique take on the RPG genre.
It's not like it's some graphical tour-de-force with a lot of twists and a save-the-world plot, but that's exactly what I liked about it. It's about time we started seeing some low-key games that try to do something new.
It's not like it's some graphical tour-de-force with a lot of twists and a save-the-world plot, but that's exactly what I liked about it. It's about time we started seeing some low-key games that try to do something new.
Oh, and for God sakes: Japanese companies, PLEASE don't learn from your Western counterparts!
The WRPG is just as fucking stagnant, if not more so. The last thing I want to see are a bunch of generic characters in generic worlds with the illusion of choice yet every choice leads to more empty scenarios and empty characters. Fuck WRPGs. There hasn't been a good one since Betrayal at Krondor.
The WRPG is just as fucking stagnant, if not more so. The last thing I want to see are a bunch of generic characters in generic worlds with the illusion of choice yet every choice leads to more empty scenarios and empty characters. Fuck WRPGs. There hasn't been a good one since Betrayal at Krondor.
You know, I didn't expect many of you to agree with Pedro. I get that a lot of you are JRPG fans who can't stand open-ended sandbox WRPGs, but he's right about one thing. The genre simply doesn't sell like it used to, and the only way it'll do that is if there's some give and take.
I don't expect Japanese companies to embrace Western game design, but adapting some basic concepts won't hinder their creative process. At the end of the day, selling games is the only thing that'll keep Japanese RPGs, and the companies that publish them, afloat. The best way to do that is to appease the masses, and as much as you may enjoy the niche appeal of item fusion, and the token high-pitched voice acting, there comes a point where the mass-market appeal stops.
Also, before you continue to defend the voice acting in the game, please go back and play Persona 3 or 4, Resonance of Fate, Final Fantasy XIII, or even Lost Odessy for that matter. Rorona doesn't really compare. I applaud them for doing what they could on the budget they had, but I certainly wouldn't defend it.
I don't expect Japanese companies to embrace Western game design, but adapting some basic concepts won't hinder their creative process. At the end of the day, selling games is the only thing that'll keep Japanese RPGs, and the companies that publish them, afloat. The best way to do that is to appease the masses, and as much as you may enjoy the niche appeal of item fusion, and the token high-pitched voice acting, there comes a point where the mass-market appeal stops.
Also, before you continue to defend the voice acting in the game, please go back and play Persona 3 or 4, Resonance of Fate, Final Fantasy XIII, or even Lost Odessy for that matter. Rorona doesn't really compare. I applaud them for doing what they could on the budget they had, but I certainly wouldn't defend it.
I'm going to disagree with the stagnation of Western RPGs. If you look at games like Mass Effect, Fallout and Dragon Age, they've all taken formulas that we know and have put them in interesting formats that encourage me to keep playing.
Rorona took a familar formula and did nothing with it. I'm quite fond of JRPGs, but only if they're good. Persona 3 and 4 were fantastic games (that I actually perfer over their Western breatherin), but desides those two there hasn't been a JRPG this gen that has made me want to go and pick it up. Final Fantasy XIII, while a techincal masterpiece, bored the living hell out of me when I watched my friend play it. The closest JRPG I've wanted to play this gen is Lost Odyssey, and that's because it's essential Final Fantasy IV in HD.
Bottom line is Japanese companies have to evolve or die. They already have a niche market that will buy and defend their games no matter what. However, I don't believe that's enough for them to make a profit and stay in business. Eventually their going to have to change up how they make their games or they'll stop releasing games, period.
Rorona took a familar formula and did nothing with it. I'm quite fond of JRPGs, but only if they're good. Persona 3 and 4 were fantastic games (that I actually perfer over their Western breatherin), but desides those two there hasn't been a JRPG this gen that has made me want to go and pick it up. Final Fantasy XIII, while a techincal masterpiece, bored the living hell out of me when I watched my friend play it. The closest JRPG I've wanted to play this gen is Lost Odyssey, and that's because it's essential Final Fantasy IV in HD.
Bottom line is Japanese companies have to evolve or die. They already have a niche market that will buy and defend their games no matter what. However, I don't believe that's enough for them to make a profit and stay in business. Eventually their going to have to change up how they make their games or they'll stop releasing games, period.
@Pedro I actually agree with @the7k about those games featuring generic worlds -- maybe not so much the characters themselves, but generic components would be a valid criticism of many Western RPGs, including some of those you listed.
What we need is for Japan to do what it's best at -- innovating. They need to put the proverbial icing on the cake.
What we need is for Japan to do what it's best at -- innovating. They need to put the proverbial icing on the cake.
I've had the game for awhile, and am slowly plowing through it. I have to agree that the battle system is pretty damn boring. I have no other huge complaints besides though.
Well, everyone here is bring a lot of good points, but the fact remains that the game seems to have sold pretty well in Japan last year (judging from its wiki page), and we kind of got lucky that it was brought over (even if its more than a year later than its original release).
My point is that apparently, JRPGs apparently still sell well over there. Some sort of innovation would be greatly appreciated by some of us, but I'm not sure if it would be all that well received in a game such as Rorona, which comes from a long-running and somewhat successful franchise.
@Tim Sadly I haven't had the chance to play the original Persona 3 game... and judging from the seiyuu cast, I'll agree that they're in a league of their own. And so is Blazblue, for that matter. But still, I really enjoyed the work some of them did in Atelier Rorona.
My point is that apparently, JRPGs apparently still sell well over there. Some sort of innovation would be greatly appreciated by some of us, but I'm not sure if it would be all that well received in a game such as Rorona, which comes from a long-running and somewhat successful franchise.
@Tim Sadly I haven't had the chance to play the original Persona 3 game... and judging from the seiyuu cast, I'll agree that they're in a league of their own. And so is Blazblue, for that matter. But still, I really enjoyed the work some of them did in Atelier Rorona.
I'm gonna have to agree with Pedro, IMO.
The only JRPG I've really enjoyed lately besides Persona 3 was Recettear, and that's because Recettear was something new and unique that was actually really fun.
On the other hand, Fallout 3 is probably my favourite game on the Xbox, but that's just me.
I'm not saying that there are no bad WRPGs (I don't really like Mass Effect), but most JRPGs have been just average lately. It'll pick up eventually.
The only JRPG I've really enjoyed lately besides Persona 3 was Recettear, and that's because Recettear was something new and unique that was actually really fun.
On the other hand, Fallout 3 is probably my favourite game on the Xbox, but that's just me.
I'm not saying that there are no bad WRPGs (I don't really like Mass Effect), but most JRPGs have been just average lately. It'll pick up eventually.
First review of Rorona I've read that actually had trouble with completing the quests on time. I'll have to go decide for myself with a rental copy or something. From what I understand is that part of the appeal is to replay the game to get the endings, the "good" canon ending being not too hard (from a couple reviews I've read). Then again, atelier games are for those who love atelier games or can still play games that haven't changed much when it comes to grinding. I personally put 90% of the games NISA brings over under "your mileage might vary."
On the JRPG/WRPG thing... I don't get it. I agree that part of the problem is that we have to make such distinctions between regions (a single Japan vs. "the west"). Atelier games are hard to use for this argument because it feels like a niche game being brought over for a niche audience. Gust just doesn't sound like a big company.
I wouldn't want a Japanese company to just make a JRPG themed version of a Bethesda game, I'd want to challenge them to innovate something above both. I could go on and on, maybe I should make a blog about this.
On the JRPG/WRPG thing... I don't get it. I agree that part of the problem is that we have to make such distinctions between regions (a single Japan vs. "the west"). Atelier games are hard to use for this argument because it feels like a niche game being brought over for a niche audience. Gust just doesn't sound like a big company.
I wouldn't want a Japanese company to just make a JRPG themed version of a Bethesda game, I'd want to challenge them to innovate something above both. I could go on and on, maybe I should make a blog about this.
I mean... Demons' Souls was made in Japan and it was made of 100% win.
I personally, am a lover of ALL RPGs, no matter where they come from. I just really enjoy the basic RPG mechanics. Baldur's Gate will probably always be number 1 to me and FFVI number 2. I'm happy with both genre's still. but Tim makes a good point. JRPGs don't sell like they used to and ME2, DA, and Fallout have shown that WRPGs most certainly do.
I personally, am a lover of ALL RPGs, no matter where they come from. I just really enjoy the basic RPG mechanics. Baldur's Gate will probably always be number 1 to me and FFVI number 2. I'm happy with both genre's still. but Tim makes a good point. JRPGs don't sell like they used to and ME2, DA, and Fallout have shown that WRPGs most certainly do.
@Fireaxe
You make an interesting point about Rorona selling well in Japan. With the success of franchises like Dragon Quest, I think that shows that typical JRPG consumer doesn't like major change in their franchises.
Persona 3 came from a line of games that hadn't had a proper iteration in quite a few years, so the drastic changes that were made didn't scare potential buyers away. However, the next numbered Persona was similar to the one before it. The difference between P4 and Rorona is that acting, writing and story were presented excellently in P4 and those same things were pretty poor in Rorona.
It'll be interesting to see when the next Persona game comes out if they make any major changes in setting or combat.
@the7k
A couple of years ago I would've agreed with you on the WRPG front. The last WRPG I played pre-PS3 was Fallout 2. However, I think that WRPG's have done more with making their stories new and exciting.
Take Mass Effect and its sequel. You can argue that the story fits the "Space Marine trying to save the universe" and you'd be correct. What makes the ME series pop for me is more the ability to take the character of Shepard in different directions. Yes, in the end you're going to accomplish your goal in the way Bioware intended, but in what shape you and your crew are in will vary from person to person. It's different (in a good way) from other games in its genre and an example of the genre evolving with the times.
I haven't seen a JRPG go for something that ambitious since Xenosaga, and even there the worst part of that series was it trying to stick to JRPG tropes. We'll never know because it was too different for the Japanese and too much the same ol' JRPG for westerners. I personally believe if it had gone more into the Space Opera angle and less into the "Young character has to grow up and save the universe" it would've been received better.
You make an interesting point about Rorona selling well in Japan. With the success of franchises like Dragon Quest, I think that shows that typical JRPG consumer doesn't like major change in their franchises.
Persona 3 came from a line of games that hadn't had a proper iteration in quite a few years, so the drastic changes that were made didn't scare potential buyers away. However, the next numbered Persona was similar to the one before it. The difference between P4 and Rorona is that acting, writing and story were presented excellently in P4 and those same things were pretty poor in Rorona.
It'll be interesting to see when the next Persona game comes out if they make any major changes in setting or combat.
@the7k
A couple of years ago I would've agreed with you on the WRPG front. The last WRPG I played pre-PS3 was Fallout 2. However, I think that WRPG's have done more with making their stories new and exciting.
Take Mass Effect and its sequel. You can argue that the story fits the "Space Marine trying to save the universe" and you'd be correct. What makes the ME series pop for me is more the ability to take the character of Shepard in different directions. Yes, in the end you're going to accomplish your goal in the way Bioware intended, but in what shape you and your crew are in will vary from person to person. It's different (in a good way) from other games in its genre and an example of the genre evolving with the times.
I haven't seen a JRPG go for something that ambitious since Xenosaga, and even there the worst part of that series was it trying to stick to JRPG tropes. We'll never know because it was too different for the Japanese and too much the same ol' JRPG for westerners. I personally believe if it had gone more into the Space Opera angle and less into the "Young character has to grow up and save the universe" it would've been received better.
@Pedro Oh thanks Pedro, now I want to play Xenosaga... a game I bought as soon as it was released and have yet to finish... Well, there's that and Persona 3 which I desperately need to finish at some point.
I think the problem is that the best RPGs this generation haven't been on home consoles period. They've been on handhelds. PSP got both Ys Seven and Oath for Felghana (Among a ton of other gems that no one played) while the DS got underplayed Infinite Space and again, a bajillion others. Jrpg fans have been having an awesome time on their handhelds for the past few years.
Of course the reasons are that developers can take risks on handhelds and not expect to fail financially because development costs are a lot lower. A game like Etrian Odyssey would NOT succeed on the PS3 here, but it flourishes on the DS.
JRPGs sell well here in Japan, but I don't think they'll ever get back their love in America. Look at Tales of Vesperia. In my opinion one of the best next gen Jrpgs that gets a LOT of things right. Few people bought it. So now instead out of Japan we're getting games with huge beefy guys as the extreme because the opinion is that Westerners like games with super macho men. Japanese consumers will never go for that.
And I really hesitate to call Mass Effect or its sequel an RPG. I love both games, but I'd say it's a shooter series with light RPG elements. I wouldn't say dialogue choices are singular to RPGs. But that's just me.
Good article.
Of course the reasons are that developers can take risks on handhelds and not expect to fail financially because development costs are a lot lower. A game like Etrian Odyssey would NOT succeed on the PS3 here, but it flourishes on the DS.
JRPGs sell well here in Japan, but I don't think they'll ever get back their love in America. Look at Tales of Vesperia. In my opinion one of the best next gen Jrpgs that gets a LOT of things right. Few people bought it. So now instead out of Japan we're getting games with huge beefy guys as the extreme because the opinion is that Westerners like games with super macho men. Japanese consumers will never go for that.
And I really hesitate to call Mass Effect or its sequel an RPG. I love both games, but I'd say it's a shooter series with light RPG elements. I wouldn't say dialogue choices are singular to RPGs. But that's just me.
Good article.
They can learn from their western counterparts? Really? How by making every thing about knights or space marines? By making every game a shooter?
Japan doesn't need to learn anything from the west. At all. Case in point. Valkyria Chronicles, Persona, The World Ends With You. How many big western RPG's have there been in the last few years? Lets see. Fallout, Mass Effect and Dragon Age(not i'm not counting WoW here we are not talking MMO's)
The audience has changed as gaming has gone main stream in the US. In the mid 90's and early 00's gaming wasen't nearly as main stream as it is now. As that changed peoples taste in games changed. People think Japan needs to learn something but they don't.
Need a example? Lets look at the action Genre. When Devil May Cry came out it was considered far and away the best action game ever made. It wasen't until ANOTHER japanese game came along in Ninja Gaiden that that changed and guess what. No one outside of Japan can make a action game as good as something like Bayonetta. Sure god of war is big epic and pretty but as a technical game that thrives on skill and game play elements it doesn't come close to something on the level of Devil May cry 3 or Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta.
Look on the flip side of that. The west has always done shooters well. From Doom to Half Life they have always been done well and Japan can't seem to get that down.
My point is the audience has changed. The Japanese studios haven't gotten less skilled or anything. It's simply tastes changing in the US as gaming went more main stream.
Japan doesn't need to learn anything from the west. At all. Case in point. Valkyria Chronicles, Persona, The World Ends With You. How many big western RPG's have there been in the last few years? Lets see. Fallout, Mass Effect and Dragon Age(not i'm not counting WoW here we are not talking MMO's)
The audience has changed as gaming has gone main stream in the US. In the mid 90's and early 00's gaming wasen't nearly as main stream as it is now. As that changed peoples taste in games changed. People think Japan needs to learn something but they don't.
Need a example? Lets look at the action Genre. When Devil May Cry came out it was considered far and away the best action game ever made. It wasen't until ANOTHER japanese game came along in Ninja Gaiden that that changed and guess what. No one outside of Japan can make a action game as good as something like Bayonetta. Sure god of war is big epic and pretty but as a technical game that thrives on skill and game play elements it doesn't come close to something on the level of Devil May cry 3 or Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta.
Look on the flip side of that. The west has always done shooters well. From Doom to Half Life they have always been done well and Japan can't seem to get that down.
My point is the audience has changed. The Japanese studios haven't gotten less skilled or anything. It's simply tastes changing in the US as gaming went more main stream.
LOL WRPGS changing actually they are as stagnant as JRPG if not worse all what we are getting recently are a Hybrid of WRPGs with FPS or shooting games to make the game feel fresh but that made them lose their WRPG Identity.
@Reibooi: The great ones are great, and the average ones are bad.
Also, the action genre is not the RPG genre (most of the time), so your fourth paragraph is moot.
@Pedro: "the dullest combat this side of the 8-bit Final Fantasies." Excuse me, but Final Fantasy II was very entertaining, and it certainly wasn't for the storyline.
Also, the action genre is not the RPG genre (most of the time), so your fourth paragraph is moot.
@Pedro: "the dullest combat this side of the 8-bit Final Fantasies." Excuse me, but Final Fantasy II was very entertaining, and it certainly wasn't for the storyline.
Wow, did 'not' expect this to be as such.
Let's hope Gust will do the right thing... Kill off the Atelier series and focus on making Mana Khemia 3. >_>
Let's hope Gust will do the right thing... Kill off the Atelier series and focus on making Mana Khemia 3. >_>
Wait a second. If you've never played any of the Atelier games, how can you not think the alchemic part as something to keep the game fresh. Isn't that element something else to appreciate with the traditional battle system it uses?
I tried to play one of the Atelier games but I wasn't into it. Maybe I'll try again, because on paper the concept sounds like what I would love.
I think that Japan should export more otome games, etc. There's definitely a market. And no, I'm not counting Rune Factory 1-3 or the Atelier games as some might. At very least, something that involves more than a farming/creation component as the main part.
I think that Japan should export more otome games, etc. There's definitely a market. And no, I'm not counting Rune Factory 1-3 or the Atelier games as some might. At very least, something that involves more than a farming/creation component as the main part.
"Rorona took a familar formula and did nothing with it."
I dunno, I haven't played many RPGs that were about keeping an alchemy shop afloat, and all the things that go along with that.
If you don't like doing that, that's fine. I mean, it's not traditional JRPG territory - but to say it's just the same old thing you've seen before? I don't remember ever playing a Final Fantasy and spending the entire game gaining the trust of fellow citizens through making high-quality items. Atelier Rorona has more in common with Recettear than any other JRPG I've played.
The battle system is extremely simple, sure, and I can see how that can turn folks off. The voice acting can be ear-gratingly bad, i get that. Still, despite all that, I still enjoyed that this was a game that was more about creation than destruction. You say its the same-ol', same-ol', but I feel exactly the opposite - that this was the breath of fresh air I needed.
Oh yeah, I guess there might be one other WRPG out there besides Krondor I liked. Does Deus Ex count as a WRPG? I'm not sure if it does, but it does at least have a memorable cast of characters and a world full of atmosphere and feeling.
I dunno, I haven't played many RPGs that were about keeping an alchemy shop afloat, and all the things that go along with that.
If you don't like doing that, that's fine. I mean, it's not traditional JRPG territory - but to say it's just the same old thing you've seen before? I don't remember ever playing a Final Fantasy and spending the entire game gaining the trust of fellow citizens through making high-quality items. Atelier Rorona has more in common with Recettear than any other JRPG I've played.
The battle system is extremely simple, sure, and I can see how that can turn folks off. The voice acting can be ear-gratingly bad, i get that. Still, despite all that, I still enjoyed that this was a game that was more about creation than destruction. You say its the same-ol', same-ol', but I feel exactly the opposite - that this was the breath of fresh air I needed.
Oh yeah, I guess there might be one other WRPG out there besides Krondor I liked. Does Deus Ex count as a WRPG? I'm not sure if it does, but it does at least have a memorable cast of characters and a world full of atmosphere and feeling.
@Fireaxe
I've been wanting to give Xenosaga another run through, but a combination of my copy of the first game going missing and the 100+ hours it would take to go through the series has made me think twice about that. It is a good time, though the second game is a drag during the later half of the first disk.
@Elliot G
You make an excellent point about hand helds. I think that the lowered costs of development on the PSP and DS makes it easier for developers who don't have the money or man-power to get their ideas out there. The ridiculous costs of getting a current gen game out on the market makes innovention a difficult proposition. Thus, you're likely to find new and/or crazy ideas like "The World Ends With You" on the DS or PSP. You also make a good point about Mass Effect, especially the sequel. It's more shooter-focused with lite-RPG elements, which I think helped it. The point about dialouge choice was more to do with the consequences of your actions being felt in later games, something that I belive to be more related to RPGs. Not sure if I was clear on that.
I also forgot to mention that Valkyria Chronicles was an excellent JRPG that did something different. I also heard that it also didn't sell very well, hence its switch to the cheaper PSP.
@Reibooi
I'll ask you this then. How many JRPGs feature knights and mechs? I'd argue that the RPG genre on both sides of the ocean lean on fantasy and sci-fi as their main settings. To criticize the West for their style choice and not the East would be turning a blind eye to a problem that is perhaps wider spread than JRPG vs. WRPG.
As for the Japan needing to learn from the West, I think they absolutely do. Talk to any developer in America and they will tell you that they have incorporated at least one thing in their design from a Japanese game. It's learning what is out there and taking what the competition did well and making it better. Japanese developers like Capcom have already done that with games like Dead Rising. Though inherently Japanese with its design, the game is undoubtably inspired by western conceits. With American action games, Dante's Inferno was a technically competent game, if not original. See also the Max Payne games, fun if a bit flawed.
I also don't mean to say that Japanese developing companies have gotten worse at their jobs, just that they've gotten lazy. When Square-Enix says that they didn't put towns in FF13 because it was too hard when Lost Odyssey did that two years prior, that screams of laziness and a group of people resting on their laurels and their guaranteed niche audience. As a fan of the company I expect more from them if I'm going to give them my money.
@gwjunkie
I was unclear here. I was referring to combat in8-bit Final Fantasies. Limited in scope, limited in execution, limited in possibilities. I will say that I felt that was an insult to early FF's, since you at least had some interesting magic management in the first FF. FF2 wasn't as interesting as, say, the job system in FF3 and 5 or the specific characters in FF4. It DID have a neat leveling system, I will say that. It's still telling that these 10+ year old games outdid a recent game in the leveling/combat department.
@Kyogissun
I actually don't hope that Gust kills off Atelier. The ideas are interesting, but they need a lot of work in other departments. With a lot of retooling (or the mass theft of Atlus) it could be something I would buy. Just...not in this format.
@Outlawauron
The alchemy was the only thing I really enjoyed about Rorona. My beef was that everything that lead up to the Alchemy (exploring, combat, awful limitations on time) was either dull or poorly planned, making it impossible for me to enjoy one of the games only redeemable traits.
@MihoChan9
Hell, if guys can enjoy their eroge, I'm sure otome games could have their time. Maybe if you tried email places like J-List or Manga Gamer they could direct an Otome fan in the right direction.
@Alicemagic
Touché.
I've been wanting to give Xenosaga another run through, but a combination of my copy of the first game going missing and the 100+ hours it would take to go through the series has made me think twice about that. It is a good time, though the second game is a drag during the later half of the first disk.
@Elliot G
You make an excellent point about hand helds. I think that the lowered costs of development on the PSP and DS makes it easier for developers who don't have the money or man-power to get their ideas out there. The ridiculous costs of getting a current gen game out on the market makes innovention a difficult proposition. Thus, you're likely to find new and/or crazy ideas like "The World Ends With You" on the DS or PSP. You also make a good point about Mass Effect, especially the sequel. It's more shooter-focused with lite-RPG elements, which I think helped it. The point about dialouge choice was more to do with the consequences of your actions being felt in later games, something that I belive to be more related to RPGs. Not sure if I was clear on that.
I also forgot to mention that Valkyria Chronicles was an excellent JRPG that did something different. I also heard that it also didn't sell very well, hence its switch to the cheaper PSP.
@Reibooi
I'll ask you this then. How many JRPGs feature knights and mechs? I'd argue that the RPG genre on both sides of the ocean lean on fantasy and sci-fi as their main settings. To criticize the West for their style choice and not the East would be turning a blind eye to a problem that is perhaps wider spread than JRPG vs. WRPG.
As for the Japan needing to learn from the West, I think they absolutely do. Talk to any developer in America and they will tell you that they have incorporated at least one thing in their design from a Japanese game. It's learning what is out there and taking what the competition did well and making it better. Japanese developers like Capcom have already done that with games like Dead Rising. Though inherently Japanese with its design, the game is undoubtably inspired by western conceits. With American action games, Dante's Inferno was a technically competent game, if not original. See also the Max Payne games, fun if a bit flawed.
I also don't mean to say that Japanese developing companies have gotten worse at their jobs, just that they've gotten lazy. When Square-Enix says that they didn't put towns in FF13 because it was too hard when Lost Odyssey did that two years prior, that screams of laziness and a group of people resting on their laurels and their guaranteed niche audience. As a fan of the company I expect more from them if I'm going to give them my money.
@gwjunkie
I was unclear here. I was referring to combat in8-bit Final Fantasies. Limited in scope, limited in execution, limited in possibilities. I will say that I felt that was an insult to early FF's, since you at least had some interesting magic management in the first FF. FF2 wasn't as interesting as, say, the job system in FF3 and 5 or the specific characters in FF4. It DID have a neat leveling system, I will say that. It's still telling that these 10+ year old games outdid a recent game in the leveling/combat department.
@Kyogissun
I actually don't hope that Gust kills off Atelier. The ideas are interesting, but they need a lot of work in other departments. With a lot of retooling (or the mass theft of Atlus) it could be something I would buy. Just...not in this format.
@Outlawauron
The alchemy was the only thing I really enjoyed about Rorona. My beef was that everything that lead up to the Alchemy (exploring, combat, awful limitations on time) was either dull or poorly planned, making it impossible for me to enjoy one of the games only redeemable traits.
@MihoChan9
Hell, if guys can enjoy their eroge, I'm sure otome games could have their time. Maybe if you tried email places like J-List or Manga Gamer they could direct an Otome fan in the right direction.
@Alicemagic
Touché.
@the7k
The alchemy shop angle was the only thing that was unique about the game. Everything else felt rote and by the books. Rorona does share some of its conceits with Recettear, but I feel that Recettear does everything else except for the art better. There was also the segment of Dragon Quest 4 when you played as Torneko trying to build up his shop, but that was a small segment of the game.
Hell, if you think that Rorona is a breath of fresh air, I'm definitely not going to take that away from you. I'm just saying that the game did not appeal to me? If you dug it, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I'd also say that Deus Ex could be a WRPG. It felt like a less buggy Oblivion, years before Oblivion.
The alchemy shop angle was the only thing that was unique about the game. Everything else felt rote and by the books. Rorona does share some of its conceits with Recettear, but I feel that Recettear does everything else except for the art better. There was also the segment of Dragon Quest 4 when you played as Torneko trying to build up his shop, but that was a small segment of the game.
Hell, if you think that Rorona is a breath of fresh air, I'm definitely not going to take that away from you. I'm just saying that the game did not appeal to me? If you dug it, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I'd also say that Deus Ex could be a WRPG. It felt like a less buggy Oblivion, years before Oblivion.
@Pedro: I haven't played 3-5 (or if I have then it was when I was like 5) so I can't really argue that point with you. I've been trying to revisit the old FF games now that I have an SNES again and II is the only one I've had time and money to get. FFII is just the only game I remembered having a realtime/turn hybrid combat system the way it did, which was really brilliant imho. (Is that system common in the older FF games?)
And telling, definitely. I haven't played the latest FF games, but from what I hear it's all grinding and awkwardly-scaled combat. Square Enix is slipping, I guess. TWEWY was still a great piece of work, though, easily my favorite game for the DS.
And telling, definitely. I haven't played the latest FF games, but from what I hear it's all grinding and awkwardly-scaled combat. Square Enix is slipping, I guess. TWEWY was still a great piece of work, though, easily my favorite game for the DS.
The alchemy shop angle was the only thing that was unique about the game? The alchemy shop angle WAS the game! That was the whole point of it!
Just so we're clear - I'm not mad that you gave the game a 3/10. I can see the game not appealing to most people the way it did to me.
I just hate seeing the suggestion that the only way for JRPGs to make bank in this over-saturated industry is to make the industry even more over-saturated by making JRPGs and WRPGs indistinguishable from each other.
At first, I feared it. Now, not only do I accept it, but I honestly believe it would make the situation better in the long run. Video. Game. Crash. We need another. It's time to start over.
I just hate seeing the suggestion that the only way for JRPGs to make bank in this over-saturated industry is to make the industry even more over-saturated by making JRPGs and WRPGs indistinguishable from each other.
At first, I feared it. Now, not only do I accept it, but I honestly believe it would make the situation better in the long run. Video. Game. Crash. We need another. It's time to start over.
@the7k Your comment about RPG that you've played not having any aspect like Rorona's with gaining the towns-peoples trust, etc: in Final Fantasy XI (online), doing side quests and such in order to gain the trust of townspeople is actually a huge factor in the game. There are certain items for various classes that couldn't be obtained without doing said quests or shelling out a ton of money.
Atelier Rorona didn't do it first, sorry!
Atelier Rorona didn't do it first, sorry!
@ the7k Crash probably won't happen due to mainstream acceptance of some form of video game. It can only change. Also, good points.
@Pedro - The substantive point which I think most Western critiques of Japanese game making miss is that not only are handheld games more cost effective than traditional console games, but in Japan, handheld consoles dominate the market to an extraordinary degree. The best and most innovative ideas are being saved for handheld games simply because more people play them that way.
Its unfortunate that the combat system in this one didn't show much engagement from what you said in your review. Surprisingly, the Mana Khemia series that spun off the Atelier one on PS2 had a more engaging combat system and a more accessibly alchemy system. At first the combat started off basic but as you leveled up, your characters could switch in and out while performing support abilities to turn the tide of battles, they would gain over the top super moves, and basic attack command animation changes. There was even a character that had a super move that resembles Gurren Lagann's Giga Drill Breaker when he summons the power of his mana spirit. He also wields a great sword that can also fire shurikens and extend into a sword whip.
Every member of your party was an alchemist with their own mana spirit since the game took place in an alchemy school and you don't have to pay them as they play a role in the story like every rpg party does. The gathering was made less tedious since you could have your party members go get them for you. At the end of the day, they come back with all the goods you need to make stuff. If you need to remake anything you already did, your party members can make it for you with no materials taken away from your inventory. The only catch is that you have to gather the material yourself in the early parts of the game before these features are available to you. On the plus side, it doesn't cost anything to make things except for the required materials you need and you don't lose health when you do other stuff in the game also.
Its unfortunate that they didn't throw in the convenient features that made Mana Khemia more accessible into Rorona(based on Pedro's review).
Perhaps Gust should have made this title for the hand held and we might have seen a more refined and accessible game borrowing elements that were improved from the Mana Khemia games along with a couple new elements and improvements to draw in more fans.
On an ending note, I have yet to play Rorona so my opinions might change if I ever get to play it one day. There is a 50/50 I might enjoy it since a reviewer at rpgamer gave it a 4.5 out of 5 and it was also his first Atelier game. His only issue with the game was the voice acting and the limited inventory.
It was interesting to hear the other side of this game in the perspective of one that didn't enjoy it. As they say a review is meant to show what the reviewer experienced with the product, not what we want them to tell us. I was entertained with your ordeal of trying to get through the game the best you could and you did a good job at that. At the end of the day you should be glad you didn't dish out 59.99 plus tax to play it.
Every member of your party was an alchemist with their own mana spirit since the game took place in an alchemy school and you don't have to pay them as they play a role in the story like every rpg party does. The gathering was made less tedious since you could have your party members go get them for you. At the end of the day, they come back with all the goods you need to make stuff. If you need to remake anything you already did, your party members can make it for you with no materials taken away from your inventory. The only catch is that you have to gather the material yourself in the early parts of the game before these features are available to you. On the plus side, it doesn't cost anything to make things except for the required materials you need and you don't lose health when you do other stuff in the game also.
Its unfortunate that they didn't throw in the convenient features that made Mana Khemia more accessible into Rorona(based on Pedro's review).
Perhaps Gust should have made this title for the hand held and we might have seen a more refined and accessible game borrowing elements that were improved from the Mana Khemia games along with a couple new elements and improvements to draw in more fans.
On an ending note, I have yet to play Rorona so my opinions might change if I ever get to play it one day. There is a 50/50 I might enjoy it since a reviewer at rpgamer gave it a 4.5 out of 5 and it was also his first Atelier game. His only issue with the game was the voice acting and the limited inventory.
It was interesting to hear the other side of this game in the perspective of one that didn't enjoy it. As they say a review is meant to show what the reviewer experienced with the product, not what we want them to tell us. I was entertained with your ordeal of trying to get through the game the best you could and you did a good job at that. At the end of the day you should be glad you didn't dish out 59.99 plus tax to play it.
It's a matter of personal temperament. Some people like series that never change, even if they're badly flawed. And yes, the best games in this genre are on handhelds nowadays.
The last Japanese RPG that I liked was Final Fantasy XII--because it combined old and new elements in its interface. It was somewhere between JRPG and MMO in style, without the major problems of either type. At least you could move the freakin' camera, finally!
The last Japanese RPG that I liked was Final Fantasy XII--because it combined old and new elements in its interface. It was somewhere between JRPG and MMO in style, without the major problems of either type. At least you could move the freakin' camera, finally!
WRPG looks all the same to me. Then again, most JRPG nowadays look the same to me (and I usually love the RPG genre in general; like I can't wait for Golden Sun 3). Truth is if you love one or the other, you'll let some things slide, while you'll be harsher on the other one since it's not your cup of tea.
One thing I have to agree with is the time limit. That sounds stressful as hell; aren't we supposed to be enjoying gaming instead of worrying about yet another deadline in our lives?
One thing I have to agree with is the time limit. That sounds stressful as hell; aren't we supposed to be enjoying gaming instead of worrying about yet another deadline in our lives?
I have to agree with this review. I bought the game attracted by the beautiful character art and the promise of a fun, light hearted RPG. Instead I had to deal with those god awful time limits. It's really difficult to enjoy the game because the time limit is so severe. You end up having to ignore your friends requests because the time it takes to gather materials and craft things is way too long and your assistant starts off with really low level alchemy so it can't make the items you need either. Later in the game it literally takes like a week just to get to the gathering point then another week or 2 to gather items and then a week just to get back. It's a nightmare.
@Pedro Cortes
When i said all WRPG's are basically Knights and space marines what I meant was they are all basically D&D inspired. You are correct in saying that even JRPG's have fantasy and Sci fi themes but they are never so blatantly the same. Basically EVERY SINGLE game Bioware made before they did Mass Effect was all D&D style fantasy and so was pretty much every WRPG at the time. Now compare that to 90% of JRPG's with the same fantasy type thing going on and they have their own little touches that make it feel unique and different as opposed to just another D&D clone.
Nearly every time a Japanese dev makes a game trying to implement or appeal to the western market the game fails horribly. A good example of this is Final Fantasy XIII. Yes the game sold a ton still but it was hated for what it was. And nearly every aspect of what it was was inspired by the fast pace of games in the west which is why there was no towns or side quests. It was basically made to just run you through the games story at break neck pace. No one liked this approach and as such the reviews for the game were pretty bad.
Japanese devs are learning from the west in some way as they make games. The problem is that simply learning from the west doesn't help nearly as much as people seem to think. Persona for example has a very Mass Effect like choice system in which you choose many things through the game basically choosing how the main character will like. However the Persona series is still not a run away smash hit. And more then likely never will be despite the massive amounts of critical praise. Why? Because it's not the type of game that people in the main stream US gaming scene are gonna play. As I mentioned in my first post. The Japanese devs HAVE been learning and changing things and making incredible games but still no one plays them. Had a game like Valkyria Chronicles been released in the early days of the PS2 it would have been a massive hit. But now it's just a niche title because tastes have changed.
When i said all WRPG's are basically Knights and space marines what I meant was they are all basically D&D inspired. You are correct in saying that even JRPG's have fantasy and Sci fi themes but they are never so blatantly the same. Basically EVERY SINGLE game Bioware made before they did Mass Effect was all D&D style fantasy and so was pretty much every WRPG at the time. Now compare that to 90% of JRPG's with the same fantasy type thing going on and they have their own little touches that make it feel unique and different as opposed to just another D&D clone.
Nearly every time a Japanese dev makes a game trying to implement or appeal to the western market the game fails horribly. A good example of this is Final Fantasy XIII. Yes the game sold a ton still but it was hated for what it was. And nearly every aspect of what it was was inspired by the fast pace of games in the west which is why there was no towns or side quests. It was basically made to just run you through the games story at break neck pace. No one liked this approach and as such the reviews for the game were pretty bad.
Japanese devs are learning from the west in some way as they make games. The problem is that simply learning from the west doesn't help nearly as much as people seem to think. Persona for example has a very Mass Effect like choice system in which you choose many things through the game basically choosing how the main character will like. However the Persona series is still not a run away smash hit. And more then likely never will be despite the massive amounts of critical praise. Why? Because it's not the type of game that people in the main stream US gaming scene are gonna play. As I mentioned in my first post. The Japanese devs HAVE been learning and changing things and making incredible games but still no one plays them. Had a game like Valkyria Chronicles been released in the early days of the PS2 it would have been a massive hit. But now it's just a niche title because tastes have changed.
I'm late to the party because it took me forever to gather my thoughts. Not interested in debating who makes better RPGs- I do play Japanese RPGs almost exclusively though, and I'm on the fence as to whether to get the game. My track record with finishing Gust games is not so great.
I'm a little worried about the deadlines. The closest-sounding game I've played, Atelier Annie, also had a 3 year time limit and a habit of chewing up time with gathering and synthesizing requirements. I also got the lame default ending due to missing various events. I can't really call it a laid-back game because of all the constant nagging and missing events.
The other thing that drives me crazy is the alchemy itself. Why do they torment us with recipes that you can't mix for ages, with those mystery silhouettes?
I dunno, the screenshots for Atelier Rorona look good to me. It'd be a relief to get away from having crappy 2-D sprites against a 3-D background (sorta like walking cardboard cutouts through cardboard scenery). If the music is standard Gust fare, I'm fine with that too.
So yeah, I guess it'll boil down to whether the alchemy is fun or tortuous.
I'm a little worried about the deadlines. The closest-sounding game I've played, Atelier Annie, also had a 3 year time limit and a habit of chewing up time with gathering and synthesizing requirements. I also got the lame default ending due to missing various events. I can't really call it a laid-back game because of all the constant nagging and missing events.
The other thing that drives me crazy is the alchemy itself. Why do they torment us with recipes that you can't mix for ages, with those mystery silhouettes?
I dunno, the screenshots for Atelier Rorona look good to me. It'd be a relief to get away from having crappy 2-D sprites against a 3-D background (sorta like walking cardboard cutouts through cardboard scenery). If the music is standard Gust fare, I'm fine with that too.
So yeah, I guess it'll boil down to whether the alchemy is fun or tortuous.
Got it in the mail from Gamefly yesterday, been itching to play it... hope its not as bad as it sounds.
Wait, you had trouble on your deadlines? Seriously? The game gives you plenty of time to do all the gathering and synthesizing you'd need to get done on the first week, usually. In fact, you have way more time than necessary. I freaking had an easy time on my first playthrough, with no walkthroughs to guide me. It's not uncommon to have upwards of 50 day of free time. Hell, some of the missions' required items can be bought from a store with no penalty to you. You don't even need to turn in all the items. A bunch of one of the items will suffice. Also, the requests the townfolk have for you are not necessary, at all.
Also, the music was great. There's a clear theme to all the songs, and most make for an enjoyable listening experience. I spent quite a bit of time just listening to some of the tracks. None of the songs are particularly loud or jarring, so I don't see why you'd need to mute it, even if you didn't like it. Of course, it's all personal opinion.
The combat was pretty bad. Well, more like mediocre. It's not really necessary to actually fight most of the monsters you meet, though. Still, it could have used some improvement.
VA was meh. Even the Japanese voice option didn't have that many good VAs, but they weren't bad. They conveyed their characters fine.
I felt Rorona was a fun game. Most of your complaints seem to stem from you making the game harder for yourself (the schedules are lenient as hell). The complaints about the music and VA quality are fine, as that's your preference.
As for the JRPG vs WRPG debate: Both sides need to start innovating more. Most WRPGs are indeed repetitive. Fallout 3 wasn't all that special, and Mass Effect could have definitely used some work. WRPGs also have recycled stories and characters (Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and Jade Empire are more similar than you'd think.). Same can be said for most JRPGs, too.
Just offering my opinion on this one.
Also, the music was great. There's a clear theme to all the songs, and most make for an enjoyable listening experience. I spent quite a bit of time just listening to some of the tracks. None of the songs are particularly loud or jarring, so I don't see why you'd need to mute it, even if you didn't like it. Of course, it's all personal opinion.
The combat was pretty bad. Well, more like mediocre. It's not really necessary to actually fight most of the monsters you meet, though. Still, it could have used some improvement.
VA was meh. Even the Japanese voice option didn't have that many good VAs, but they weren't bad. They conveyed their characters fine.
I felt Rorona was a fun game. Most of your complaints seem to stem from you making the game harder for yourself (the schedules are lenient as hell). The complaints about the music and VA quality are fine, as that's your preference.
As for the JRPG vs WRPG debate: Both sides need to start innovating more. Most WRPGs are indeed repetitive. Fallout 3 wasn't all that special, and Mass Effect could have definitely used some work. WRPGs also have recycled stories and characters (Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and Jade Empire are more similar than you'd think.). Same can be said for most JRPGs, too.
Just offering my opinion on this one.
follow
