Rising (3+)
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I'll be blunt. There are four reasons why I just don't care about downloading fansubs.
1). The prices is ridiculous.
2). The wait times are too long.
3). There's no threat against doing so.
4). The fansub community will support anime here even if the local industry completely collapses.
The first two bits have been discussed to death, so I'll talk about the last two details. The fact of the matter is that I certainly buy anime when it is reasonable (such as Funi's nice remastered DBZ sets, a $30 Initial D set I got from RightStuf, etc.), but the rest of the time I download what I want because I'm not afraid in the least of getting punished for it. And, quite frankly, anime will still be made long after ADV and everybody else goes down and people will still post translated episodes on the internet despite a somewhat less established international market. This is why nobody is afraid of/nobody cares about anti-fansub distribes. There simply is no threat.
In conjunction with that and linking to the first two points I listed above, I can't sympathize with either distributors or producers. If there's a problem, solve it. International boundaries and lack of funds are no excuse. SNK (Playmore) came out of BANKRUPCY with poor pr, and they sued Americans in LA because they were bootlegging. If they can do it, I'm not sure why others can't.
Finally, because I'm moving there in 2 months and I'd like to give a comparable example of what the market could be like, HK has a completely reasonable anime market. It is quick, up to date, and reasonably priced. The bootleg market was huge up until 2001 when Japanese companies finally made an effort and joined with the Chinese government to put a stop to bootlegging. When I went back last year it was difficult to find bootlegs, but the product list was still very up to date, more expensive than before but still reasonably priced, and more or less sold in the same format that bootleggers had been using before (thus meeting consumer demand). There's no reason why a similar model can't be implemented here as well.
1). The prices is ridiculous.
2). The wait times are too long.
3). There's no threat against doing so.
4). The fansub community will support anime here even if the local industry completely collapses.
The first two bits have been discussed to death, so I'll talk about the last two details. The fact of the matter is that I certainly buy anime when it is reasonable (such as Funi's nice remastered DBZ sets, a $30 Initial D set I got from RightStuf, etc.), but the rest of the time I download what I want because I'm not afraid in the least of getting punished for it. And, quite frankly, anime will still be made long after ADV and everybody else goes down and people will still post translated episodes on the internet despite a somewhat less established international market. This is why nobody is afraid of/nobody cares about anti-fansub distribes. There simply is no threat.
In conjunction with that and linking to the first two points I listed above, I can't sympathize with either distributors or producers. If there's a problem, solve it. International boundaries and lack of funds are no excuse. SNK (Playmore) came out of BANKRUPCY with poor pr, and they sued Americans in LA because they were bootlegging. If they can do it, I'm not sure why others can't.
Finally, because I'm moving there in 2 months and I'd like to give a comparable example of what the market could be like, HK has a completely reasonable anime market. It is quick, up to date, and reasonably priced. The bootleg market was huge up until 2001 when Japanese companies finally made an effort and joined with the Chinese government to put a stop to bootlegging. When I went back last year it was difficult to find bootlegs, but the product list was still very up to date, more expensive than before but still reasonably priced, and more or less sold in the same format that bootleggers had been using before (thus meeting consumer demand). There's no reason why a similar model can't be implemented here as well.
Even if that's your argument for downloading fansubs, Yuusuke, I think the companies are doing the right thing by targeting the fansubbers. Why antagonize your fanbase like the RIAA did?
They'll cut down on the wait time, the cost will go down as the industry expands, and the amount of fansubs will gradually lessen as the industry puts out its own speed subs.
They'll cut down on the wait time, the cost will go down as the industry expands, and the amount of fansubs will gradually lessen as the industry puts out its own speed subs.
I am well aware of the complete illegality and immorality of downloading fansubs.
I agree that of the shows that are subbed each season few are actually any good, worth-watching and more importantly worth buying, I do usually stick to 2 shows.
Just because downloading fansubs is wrong does not mean I am going to stop. The wait is too long, especially for us in Europe {Vol 1 of Haruhi just came out (I'm getting the sweet limited edition)}. Price is not an issue for me in that I understand how weak the industry is, why it must charge those prices.
I don't believe {largely, not completely} that companies are crazily profit mongering.
It limits how much I can buy, but I can honestly say that I have bought every piece of anime that's available in my town save one {Robotech, no interest right now}.
I think we're going to get past the problem of fansubs as companies realise how to tackle the problem of online. Yes, there'll be obstacles now and then, bickering online, but life will go on, as will awesome anime.
I agree that of the shows that are subbed each season few are actually any good, worth-watching and more importantly worth buying, I do usually stick to 2 shows.
Just because downloading fansubs is wrong does not mean I am going to stop. The wait is too long, especially for us in Europe {Vol 1 of Haruhi just came out (I'm getting the sweet limited edition)}. Price is not an issue for me in that I understand how weak the industry is, why it must charge those prices.
I don't believe {largely, not completely} that companies are crazily profit mongering.
It limits how much I can buy, but I can honestly say that I have bought every piece of anime that's available in my town save one {Robotech, no interest right now}.
I think we're going to get past the problem of fansubs as companies realise how to tackle the problem of online. Yes, there'll be obstacles now and then, bickering online, but life will go on, as will awesome anime.
Yuusuke's #4 and Zeouterlimits's post bring up point out one of the most commonly ignored aspects of this issue, since we are all arrogant Americans that think that the world revolves around us: most English fansubs aren't even downloaded by Americans. And what's one big reason why these fansubs are being downloaded by non-Americans? Their countries often don't even have a domestic anime industry. It's pretty common for a downloader of an English fansub to be a say, Croatian who downloaded a fansub that's actually been translated from a Chinese fansub into English by say, a Malaysian whose source fansub was translated by someone in Singapore. Or to go another step further, that Croatian watched a streaming version of that fansub, which was uploaded by a Chilean.
I was quite surprised, yet also glad that the AX keynote speech on fansubs made reference to this international aspect and how C&D letters can be hard to enforce when the fansub process may not actually have any American components in it.
I was quite surprised, yet also glad that the AX keynote speech on fansubs made reference to this international aspect and how C&D letters can be hard to enforce when the fansub process may not actually have any American components in it.
[quote]Even if that's your argument for downloading fansubs, Yuusuke, I think the companies are doing the right thing by targeting the fansubbers. Why antagonize your fanbase like the RIAA did?
[quote]
Oh, I think they're getting better. I'm just saying that these are the reasons why I (and everybody else) haven't really cared up to this point. I like Funi's willingness to use US style pricing on a bunch of their old series and BE's quick AND fairly reasonably priced release of TTGL, but right now they're more the exception than the rule.
As for antagonization, getting sued sucks, but that's what happens when you do something illegal, and right now nobody perceives fansubs as illegal because nobody EVER gets punished. Companies haven't even gone as far as to sue bootleggers, which is really sad. If distribution and production companies are serious about pushing the illegality of fansubs, then they have to back up their bark with some bite.
Besides, US distributors have already made a bunch of badly-thought-out blanket statements that pissed off their consumers. The SSS incident comes to mind. ;)
[quote]
Oh, I think they're getting better. I'm just saying that these are the reasons why I (and everybody else) haven't really cared up to this point. I like Funi's willingness to use US style pricing on a bunch of their old series and BE's quick AND fairly reasonably priced release of TTGL, but right now they're more the exception than the rule.
As for antagonization, getting sued sucks, but that's what happens when you do something illegal, and right now nobody perceives fansubs as illegal because nobody EVER gets punished. Companies haven't even gone as far as to sue bootleggers, which is really sad. If distribution and production companies are serious about pushing the illegality of fansubs, then they have to back up their bark with some bite.
Besides, US distributors have already made a bunch of badly-thought-out blanket statements that pissed off their consumers. The SSS incident comes to mind. ;)
I've said this all before, but here goes again
if I had the money I would buy all my anime, but I don't, anime is just too expensive for me, so I'm tasked with either never seeing a series or downloading it and I do sometimes feel bad because I do like the domestic anime companies AND I actually prefer dubs (but I have bought the boxset of Speedgrapher recently)
however if they offered a good site where you could watch anime legally for free (but with ads or whatever) well I'd flip out and totally use that (but it would of course have to not suck)
if I had the money I would buy all my anime, but I don't, anime is just too expensive for me, so I'm tasked with either never seeing a series or downloading it and I do sometimes feel bad because I do like the domestic anime companies AND I actually prefer dubs (but I have bought the boxset of Speedgrapher recently)
however if they offered a good site where you could watch anime legally for free (but with ads or whatever) well I'd flip out and totally use that (but it would of course have to not suck)
I try to download the first 2 or 3 episodes of any show that looks half-way decent...which is a lot, then i drop the crap (which is a lot lol). I usually end up watchhing 15 shows a season, 30 at any given time. Great stuff. Bored without it, and if the US anime industry dies, no loss...they're failing at most of what they're doing. Without GOOD dubs (which are far too rare atm) GOOD official subs, and somewhere to preview these shows for free (a nation-wide anime channel) most ppl arn't gonna bother buying dvds.
Same problem as Shenazin ,the dvd's are too expensive for too little, I play videogames and buying those takes money, about 60$, and I recently got 12 hour-long episodes of a good tv series on dvd for 20$.
When Anime is 30-60$ for half- a quarter of the length of the entertainment, I feel I'm getting ripped off, however I will see series on Adultswim when possible, and buy good deal box sets, like ghost in a shells box set after I saw it on tv.
When Anime is 30-60$ for half- a quarter of the length of the entertainment, I feel I'm getting ripped off, however I will see series on Adultswim when possible, and buy good deal box sets, like ghost in a shells box set after I saw it on tv.
I feel like Dick and I must be a dying breed....
Well, if it means anything, I completely agree with your statement Dick.
Every time I read posts like Yuusuke's first one I think of the old saying "Give a man an inch and he'll take a mile".
Well, if it means anything, I completely agree with your statement Dick.
Every time I read posts like Yuusuke's first one I think of the old saying "Give a man an inch and he'll take a mile".
Oh and uh Yuusuke, don't assume that people all think the same as you when it comes to dubs. Personally I like the higher pitched squeaky voices, and I know some people don't but a fairly large group of people besides myself enjoyed the supposed "bad" dubs of shows like When They Cry (One Piece and Naruto though I definitely agree had s*** dubs). In any case, all I'm saying is be careful when you use terms like "everyone".
I find that I'm not torrenting too many series these days. I actually don't follow too many current one, except for Code Geass and Macross (and Golgo when the torrent isn't broken anymore). Still, these are two (three) series I would love to own. Generally, when I'm actually working and not spending money on school, I go crazy on Right Stuf sales.
I agree that the best way to deal with the situation is to provide legal alternatives and cut down the source of the fansubs, which would be the RAW uploaders. Sure, there isn't much threat against the casual fansub downloader, but I think that is kind of a good thing for the industry because no one wants another RIAA. Plus, chastising your fans will never work. It'll just turn a lot of them against you and exacerbate the problem.
I agree that the best way to deal with the situation is to provide legal alternatives and cut down the source of the fansubs, which would be the RAW uploaders. Sure, there isn't much threat against the casual fansub downloader, but I think that is kind of a good thing for the industry because no one wants another RIAA. Plus, chastising your fans will never work. It'll just turn a lot of them against you and exacerbate the problem.
Great write-up, Dick, but I'm going to have to disagree with you about Ayres's antagonist attitude contributing to his message being blasted by the fansub community. Gia really surprised me this morning with this twitter message:
"You seemed to be all excited and anticipating the flame wars and whatnot, what happened? Burnout?"
Let me make it clear: Neither Greg or I ever feel happy about the flame wars, nor do we initiate it or attempt to provoke it. We just both know from experience that whenever you point out the fact that fansubbing is actually illegal, or make the statement that stealing anime in unethical, you _will_ get flamed for it, no exceptions. Dick, this might be something you'll come to learn the more anti-fansub you become, if you haven't realized it already. ;-)
JP and Hinano went into the panel ready to crucify Ayres. JP's reasoning for downloading fansubs was that he enjoyed the unique comment features of Nico Nico Douga. Nico Nico is a Japanese site written completely in Japanese with raw Japanese video for only the Japanese with no English subtitles on any of the videos. However, the panel wasn't listed as "raw streaming video sites with annoying comments" in the schedule, it was about "fan subbing." Ayres, like the average American otaku, had no freaking clue about the site, so he told JP that this reason was beyond the scope of the panel and moved on to the many others who had their hands up to actually talk about fansubbing.
It was a setup, but JP acted like it was a personal insult and ranted about how unfair he was treated at the panel. They even freaking filmed the incident to "prove" to their audience how much of a bastard Ayres was to them, even though they didn't bother showing how he handled other people's questions or just how much the audience engaged themselves into the conversation. And then Hinano goes the extra mile to call Ayres a "fat fuck" and how the kids who were innocently listening and actively participating in the panel were nothing more than people who "fap" to Ayres's poster every night.
It's disgusting, and unfortunately, that's the only side we get when we stick to simply reading the anime blogs. The purpose of my article was to humanize Ayres, humanize his message, humanize his audience, and dehumanize the flamers. I could have just left out that last part and it still wouldn't have made a difference. Hinano would have still crucified me no matter what I wrote. But I kept it in to show just how predictable the blogging community is, and exactly why they are the lost cause in this crusade. But we don't do it to provoke a flame war online, because the flaming will come no matter what we do.
But Ayres does go over all the legal alternatives to his audience, including Gonzo's options. We actually talked a lot about that during my interview. I did write about it in my article, not that anyone seemed to read that... (>_>)
I know that my article is going out to the wrong audience, and I know that I am not going to stop people from watching fansubs. But what I am doing by humanizing the situation is making the blogging community actually think about the damages that fansubbing is causing.This is coming at a very critical time, as the news is filled with anime companies reporting financial problems almost every day and as Gonzo is putting out a new distribution system specially designed to reach out to the fansubbers. In the past week, I've seen Gia say, "Maybe she should be generous when we donate to Gonzo," on her site, or God Len write, "we should pause our fansubs and buy Lucky Star vol. 2," on Jtor, or even one hardcore fansubber say, "Dudes, stop bittorrenting Strike Witches and just watch it on Crunchyroll!" on another site.
I might have gotten burned in the process, but I still think I did the right thing with putting out such an unfavorable post. Thanks for writing this great response to it, and for not being a complete asshole about it. ;-)
"You seemed to be all excited and anticipating the flame wars and whatnot, what happened? Burnout?"
Let me make it clear: Neither Greg or I ever feel happy about the flame wars, nor do we initiate it or attempt to provoke it. We just both know from experience that whenever you point out the fact that fansubbing is actually illegal, or make the statement that stealing anime in unethical, you _will_ get flamed for it, no exceptions. Dick, this might be something you'll come to learn the more anti-fansub you become, if you haven't realized it already. ;-)
JP and Hinano went into the panel ready to crucify Ayres. JP's reasoning for downloading fansubs was that he enjoyed the unique comment features of Nico Nico Douga. Nico Nico is a Japanese site written completely in Japanese with raw Japanese video for only the Japanese with no English subtitles on any of the videos. However, the panel wasn't listed as "raw streaming video sites with annoying comments" in the schedule, it was about "fan subbing." Ayres, like the average American otaku, had no freaking clue about the site, so he told JP that this reason was beyond the scope of the panel and moved on to the many others who had their hands up to actually talk about fansubbing.
It was a setup, but JP acted like it was a personal insult and ranted about how unfair he was treated at the panel. They even freaking filmed the incident to "prove" to their audience how much of a bastard Ayres was to them, even though they didn't bother showing how he handled other people's questions or just how much the audience engaged themselves into the conversation. And then Hinano goes the extra mile to call Ayres a "fat fuck" and how the kids who were innocently listening and actively participating in the panel were nothing more than people who "fap" to Ayres's poster every night.
It's disgusting, and unfortunately, that's the only side we get when we stick to simply reading the anime blogs. The purpose of my article was to humanize Ayres, humanize his message, humanize his audience, and dehumanize the flamers. I could have just left out that last part and it still wouldn't have made a difference. Hinano would have still crucified me no matter what I wrote. But I kept it in to show just how predictable the blogging community is, and exactly why they are the lost cause in this crusade. But we don't do it to provoke a flame war online, because the flaming will come no matter what we do.
But Ayres does go over all the legal alternatives to his audience, including Gonzo's options. We actually talked a lot about that during my interview. I did write about it in my article, not that anyone seemed to read that... (>_>)
I know that my article is going out to the wrong audience, and I know that I am not going to stop people from watching fansubs. But what I am doing by humanizing the situation is making the blogging community actually think about the damages that fansubbing is causing.This is coming at a very critical time, as the news is filled with anime companies reporting financial problems almost every day and as Gonzo is putting out a new distribution system specially designed to reach out to the fansubbers. In the past week, I've seen Gia say, "Maybe she should be generous when we donate to Gonzo," on her site, or God Len write, "we should pause our fansubs and buy Lucky Star vol. 2," on Jtor, or even one hardcore fansubber say, "Dudes, stop bittorrenting Strike Witches and just watch it on Crunchyroll!" on another site.
I might have gotten burned in the process, but I still think I did the right thing with putting out such an unfavorable post. Thanks for writing this great response to it, and for not being a complete asshole about it. ;-)
Oh and uh Yuusuke, don't assume that people all think the same as you when it comes to dubs. Personally I like the higher pitched squeaky voices, and I know some people don't but a fairly large group of people besides myself enjoyed the supposed "bad" dubs of shows like When They Cry (One Piece and Naruto though I definitely agree had s*** dubs). In any case, all I'm saying is be careful when you use terms like "everyone".
Er, I didn't say anything about dubs. I think you're mixing me up with someone else. ^^; (But just for the record, I think anime dubbing has much improved over the years into some very good stuff. The old Wings of Honneamise dub is still a favorite of mine.)
But as for the "Give a man an inch and he'll take a mile" comment, I do purchase plenty of anime dvds... in Hong Kong. :P I'd rather support that market instead at this rate. ;)
Fansubs lead to professional dubbing and support of Anime in other nations.
That isn't to say, pirate everything available.
This debate can go beyond Anime as Video Game piracy is just as high. Being an avid gamer and otaku I've seen the similarities.
To cut the to chase, most want to support the artist/creators/companies but are turned off by the overt greed.
Why buy a three or four episode DVD for a minimum of twenty USD? Why buy a fifty dollar video game that may suck?
Most aren't opposed to ads and streaming video but companies aren't willing to quickly release subs to meet the demand.
My thoughts aren't collected.
The flaming isn't as bad as one might think. The real problem being that the illegal activity taking place happens out of necessity. If there were alternatives, they'd be used. Most of the pro-fansub community are proactive and are willing to accept a change.
The RIAA and every company that cares about their IP are reactive. They see the profit being lost and react. Even being reactive, the fans still aren't being listened to. They've got the ideas and the enthusiasm if the companies would use them.
Most of us will buy our favorite shows/games when it is worth it.
That isn't to say, pirate everything available.
This debate can go beyond Anime as Video Game piracy is just as high. Being an avid gamer and otaku I've seen the similarities.
To cut the to chase, most want to support the artist/creators/companies but are turned off by the overt greed.
Why buy a three or four episode DVD for a minimum of twenty USD? Why buy a fifty dollar video game that may suck?
Most aren't opposed to ads and streaming video but companies aren't willing to quickly release subs to meet the demand.
My thoughts aren't collected.
The flaming isn't as bad as one might think. The real problem being that the illegal activity taking place happens out of necessity. If there were alternatives, they'd be used. Most of the pro-fansub community are proactive and are willing to accept a change.
The RIAA and every company that cares about their IP are reactive. They see the profit being lost and react. Even being reactive, the fans still aren't being listened to. They've got the ideas and the enthusiasm if the companies would use them.
Most of us will buy our favorite shows/games when it is worth it.
Everyone knows that half the shows that air in Japan are total crap, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to watch them on a quick run through for some cheap thrills. The way the industry is set up at the moment in America is that you almost have to buy DVDs at a high price in order to watch nearly any show.
That's why I absolutely love anything that will air the shows online or on TV to give you a sampling (despite quality of certain online sites). But right now there's no real incentive to bring most of the anime that airs in Japan over. Every once in a while a gem comes along that everyone loves and buys, but these are few and far between.
TL/DR:
Most anime is crap but I need a quick fix and end up deleting almost all of it after watching it. If there were a way to do this and still support the industry (Woo Gonzo) I'd be on board.
That's why I absolutely love anything that will air the shows online or on TV to give you a sampling (despite quality of certain online sites). But right now there's no real incentive to bring most of the anime that airs in Japan over. Every once in a while a gem comes along that everyone loves and buys, but these are few and far between.
TL/DR:
Most anime is crap but I need a quick fix and end up deleting almost all of it after watching it. If there were a way to do this and still support the industry (Woo Gonzo) I'd be on board.
I agree with God Len - I'm in the same situation. I would have never gotten into anime at all unless a friend hadn't recommended a little series called Rurouni Kenshin and let me know where I could download it. Fansubs made it possible for me to see so much anime that has fueled my interest for years now.
I love the fact I can download a show within a few days of it being aired in Japan with subs. If I could watch that same anime on free to air tv in Australia or download it at a small cost in the same time frame - I would. Happily. I do want to support the anime industry.
Some of my favourite series I watch more than once anyway so I tend to buy the anime I can afford to when it's released on dvd. Unfortunately though, I'm not rich and nor is most of the otaku community I'd imagine. To pay $30 AUD for a new release dvd with 3 or 4 episodes on it is just crazy. I'm not the most patient person in the world so waiting a few months between dvds to finish a series annoys the hell out of me.
Until I have the option on downloading/purchasing anime online within a reasonable time frame of it being aired, I'll continue to download fansubs.
I love the fact I can download a show within a few days of it being aired in Japan with subs. If I could watch that same anime on free to air tv in Australia or download it at a small cost in the same time frame - I would. Happily. I do want to support the anime industry.
Some of my favourite series I watch more than once anyway so I tend to buy the anime I can afford to when it's released on dvd. Unfortunately though, I'm not rich and nor is most of the otaku community I'd imagine. To pay $30 AUD for a new release dvd with 3 or 4 episodes on it is just crazy. I'm not the most patient person in the world so waiting a few months between dvds to finish a series annoys the hell out of me.
Until I have the option on downloading/purchasing anime online within a reasonable time frame of it being aired, I'll continue to download fansubs.
The problem is economics really. Here's the assumptions I make, using economics.
1) The utility most people get from fansubs is the same utility that would be gotten from the commercial release, if not more. People would prefer timely translations, to commercialized translations, which may not be greater in quality, and definitely are greater in waiting.
2) There is almost no risk in downloading even pirated fansubs. The first company that goes after a downloader is going to commit professional suicide. Look at how much money the RIAA has lost. Going after the subbers themselves won't work, as they'll just move somewhere else, and most of them are non-profit as is.
3) The US fan community doesn't care about the commercial companies one bit. To many of my friends, even those who have the resources, a groan comes out when a series is picked up- as that means they have to wait for it. I'd rather wait 3 days then 3 months-3 years. Is Urusei Yatsura even finished yet? If it had been fansubbed, it would have been finished 2-3 years ago.
4) If every commercial anime company went bankrupt- the anime scene would not suffer much. The two bad effects would be a reduction in new Japanese anime, as they've become more reliant on the US to cover costs, and a slight reduction in new fans- which means less glompers and 4channers. Many of today's anime fans wouldn't mind that.
5) There is a belief out there that broadcast TV shouldn't have to be paid for, as it is already supported by advertising. One thing I don't like about fansubs, and one thing I would like to change about it, is that they should keep the commercials. You can always ff if you must. I remember back in the day, we loved the Japanese wacky commercials.
Basically- the problem is
a) Most US anime fans have no reason to give a crap whether the US commercial anime companies live or die, and might in fact prefer them to die. An anime series being commercialized actually reduces the value of the series to most anime fans. I mean, if Lucky Star didn't include its disturbing schwag- people would be happy with the fansubs. In fact, I'd say Lucky Star sold more copies on schwag then the series itself.
b) The US Anime companies can't afford to take the risk of going after fansubbers- due to potential losses and difficulty of enforcement. Not to mention if they did, the response of most people would be to "quit" rather then "buy legitimate product". One has to remember that 1 piracy != 1 lost sale. The only lost sales are those who would have bought the good, but pirated instead, and I don't think that's a large number. Also, there would likely be calls for a boycott on the first company that used RIAA-style tactics, and that would likely drive them out of business.
c) Anime fans prefer to support their favorite series through schwag then paying for the series itself.
d) This generation doesn't consider fansubbing or downloading unethical at all. They definitely do not consider it stealing. I'm not going to make a moral judgement on that, that's just the facts on the ground.
1) The utility most people get from fansubs is the same utility that would be gotten from the commercial release, if not more. People would prefer timely translations, to commercialized translations, which may not be greater in quality, and definitely are greater in waiting.
2) There is almost no risk in downloading even pirated fansubs. The first company that goes after a downloader is going to commit professional suicide. Look at how much money the RIAA has lost. Going after the subbers themselves won't work, as they'll just move somewhere else, and most of them are non-profit as is.
3) The US fan community doesn't care about the commercial companies one bit. To many of my friends, even those who have the resources, a groan comes out when a series is picked up- as that means they have to wait for it. I'd rather wait 3 days then 3 months-3 years. Is Urusei Yatsura even finished yet? If it had been fansubbed, it would have been finished 2-3 years ago.
4) If every commercial anime company went bankrupt- the anime scene would not suffer much. The two bad effects would be a reduction in new Japanese anime, as they've become more reliant on the US to cover costs, and a slight reduction in new fans- which means less glompers and 4channers. Many of today's anime fans wouldn't mind that.
5) There is a belief out there that broadcast TV shouldn't have to be paid for, as it is already supported by advertising. One thing I don't like about fansubs, and one thing I would like to change about it, is that they should keep the commercials. You can always ff if you must. I remember back in the day, we loved the Japanese wacky commercials.
Basically- the problem is
a) Most US anime fans have no reason to give a crap whether the US commercial anime companies live or die, and might in fact prefer them to die. An anime series being commercialized actually reduces the value of the series to most anime fans. I mean, if Lucky Star didn't include its disturbing schwag- people would be happy with the fansubs. In fact, I'd say Lucky Star sold more copies on schwag then the series itself.
b) The US Anime companies can't afford to take the risk of going after fansubbers- due to potential losses and difficulty of enforcement. Not to mention if they did, the response of most people would be to "quit" rather then "buy legitimate product". One has to remember that 1 piracy != 1 lost sale. The only lost sales are those who would have bought the good, but pirated instead, and I don't think that's a large number. Also, there would likely be calls for a boycott on the first company that used RIAA-style tactics, and that would likely drive them out of business.
c) Anime fans prefer to support their favorite series through schwag then paying for the series itself.
d) This generation doesn't consider fansubbing or downloading unethical at all. They definitely do not consider it stealing. I'm not going to make a moral judgement on that, that's just the facts on the ground.
@arstal: I don't know about today's fans not caring about the US companies and actually dreading series gets license. I will agree that there is sometimes that sigh when it happens, but really, if you're watching fansubs before its licensed, you'll probably do it after, so it's really good news for the people who like to buy the series.
I still believe that fans want to actually buy the series they love, just not right away. We're now trained to wait for box sets and thin backs and season releases, all because someone thought selling anime in single volumes in the US was a good idea, and we all knew it wasn't. I like being able to free up hard drive space when I finally own an entire series and am able to look at it on my shelf.
We do have this mind set that broadcasted anime should be free since broadcast here basically is. It's just kind of hard to support fansubs with ads, especially with Japanese commercials of products most of us most likely won't buy.
If the US companies went bankrupt, we'd see a huge affect. The main one being that there'd be no anime to buy. Fansubs and imports would be the only way to get anime, and that would only be acceptable for a small niche of the fandom. Not just the whole those who actually like to buy series, which is a large number, it would kill off one hald of the dub vs sub debate by having no more dubs, and dub fans are incredibly plentiful. There would be less anime overall, which might not be quite as bad as long as only the sucky ones get cut, but you can't guarantee what kind stays. Actually, you can, probably moe titles that pander to Japanese otaku and don't traditionally do so well state site. Eventually dealers would have less and less to sell, anime fandom would go down with less access to anime, cons would dry up, and the fandom would shrivel and be an empty shell compared to what it is even now, all if the US companies went bankrupt and disappeared. Some might be exaggerated, but you get the basics.
And yes, going after fansub fans themselves will never work. I'm pretty sure the US companies do not want to be another RIAA. That's just way too much of a backlash from fans and drainage of resources that they probably don't want or could even handle. More online and television alternatives are the best way to go. It's just with those tricky new titles.
I still believe that fans want to actually buy the series they love, just not right away. We're now trained to wait for box sets and thin backs and season releases, all because someone thought selling anime in single volumes in the US was a good idea, and we all knew it wasn't. I like being able to free up hard drive space when I finally own an entire series and am able to look at it on my shelf.
We do have this mind set that broadcasted anime should be free since broadcast here basically is. It's just kind of hard to support fansubs with ads, especially with Japanese commercials of products most of us most likely won't buy.
If the US companies went bankrupt, we'd see a huge affect. The main one being that there'd be no anime to buy. Fansubs and imports would be the only way to get anime, and that would only be acceptable for a small niche of the fandom. Not just the whole those who actually like to buy series, which is a large number, it would kill off one hald of the dub vs sub debate by having no more dubs, and dub fans are incredibly plentiful. There would be less anime overall, which might not be quite as bad as long as only the sucky ones get cut, but you can't guarantee what kind stays. Actually, you can, probably moe titles that pander to Japanese otaku and don't traditionally do so well state site. Eventually dealers would have less and less to sell, anime fandom would go down with less access to anime, cons would dry up, and the fandom would shrivel and be an empty shell compared to what it is even now, all if the US companies went bankrupt and disappeared. Some might be exaggerated, but you get the basics.
And yes, going after fansub fans themselves will never work. I'm pretty sure the US companies do not want to be another RIAA. That's just way too much of a backlash from fans and drainage of resources that they probably don't want or could even handle. More online and television alternatives are the best way to go. It's just with those tricky new titles.
@Arstal: I'm going to say the same thing to as I did to Yuusuke, be careful when you say EVERYONE. I know quite a lot more people that buy DVDs then I've even HEARD of people buying figures and other merchandise. In fact, the only people I know that have any merchandise have at least a box set or two.
And instead of saying the same thing over again, I'll just say Niko's comment above mine makes a lot of sense.
@Yuusuke: I think I got one of your comments from another tab/article mixed up with the one(s) in this one....In any case the main thing I was trying to say is there are many more people that like localized anime far more than fansubbed. The difference is sub-lovers are the extremely vocal minority. That and that the Japanese industry as a whole WOULD take a huge hit if the American market went down. Estimates place the American market revenues alone account for 30% of the total revenue a show in Japan makes (now whether that's culminatively or just shows that make it to here, idk)
And instead of saying the same thing over again, I'll just say Niko's comment above mine makes a lot of sense.
@Yuusuke: I think I got one of your comments from another tab/article mixed up with the one(s) in this one....In any case the main thing I was trying to say is there are many more people that like localized anime far more than fansubbed. The difference is sub-lovers are the extremely vocal minority. That and that the Japanese industry as a whole WOULD take a huge hit if the American market went down. Estimates place the American market revenues alone account for 30% of the total revenue a show in Japan makes (now whether that's culminatively or just shows that make it to here, idk)
1. I stay away from downloading licensed shows. It only makes sense. Well, unless a show I'm really into is licensed half-way or most of the way through the series. It's dickish to not let me finish it out.
2. I honestly don't see why I should have to pay to watch something just because I was born here and not where it's airing. Yeah, I get that there's advertising in the locality where it's airing, but I don't buy stuff I see in commercials. Does that mean I'm stealing American TV?
3. I'm happy with the new turn of Japanese companies releasing their own for-fee "fansubs". I'm just waiting for a show to come out that I actually want to watch.
4. If I wasn't watching fansubs, I wouldn't be watching any anime. Fansubs are the best advertising there is. Has anyone on a budget ever bought anything based on a preview they saw on a US-released disc? (Those previews actually make me not want to watch those series.)
2. I honestly don't see why I should have to pay to watch something just because I was born here and not where it's airing. Yeah, I get that there's advertising in the locality where it's airing, but I don't buy stuff I see in commercials. Does that mean I'm stealing American TV?
3. I'm happy with the new turn of Japanese companies releasing their own for-fee "fansubs". I'm just waiting for a show to come out that I actually want to watch.
4. If I wasn't watching fansubs, I wouldn't be watching any anime. Fansubs are the best advertising there is. Has anyone on a budget ever bought anything based on a preview they saw on a US-released disc? (Those previews actually make me not want to watch those series.)
I'm not saying this applies to everyone- but I believe this applies to the majority, and could be shown on a demand curve.
I'm lucky in that there is a place to get reasonably priced used anime here.
@Niko
The point is the fans want the boxset more then the actual series itself. That's what they're paying for. I also do agree with your conclusion about the effects of what would happen, but that a lot of anime watchers now would accept that.
The main point I'm getting at, is US companies should switch from promoting DVD's as the source of their revenue, to promoting merchandise. The fansub generation is, in general, much more willing to pay for a plushie then a DVD. The whole concept of replacement goods comes into play- it's harder to get a substitute for a plushie then a DVD given the availability of fansubs.
It may not sound like it, but I don't want the US companies to go out of business. However, the current business model is dying, and it's impossible to put the genie back in the bottle. That NEVER works.
Then again, one caveat, I know a lot of anime fans who don't earn a lot of money, given where I lived and what I have done, so my experiences may also be different then yours.
I'm lucky in that there is a place to get reasonably priced used anime here.
@Niko
The point is the fans want the boxset more then the actual series itself. That's what they're paying for. I also do agree with your conclusion about the effects of what would happen, but that a lot of anime watchers now would accept that.
The main point I'm getting at, is US companies should switch from promoting DVD's as the source of their revenue, to promoting merchandise. The fansub generation is, in general, much more willing to pay for a plushie then a DVD. The whole concept of replacement goods comes into play- it's harder to get a substitute for a plushie then a DVD given the availability of fansubs.
It may not sound like it, but I don't want the US companies to go out of business. However, the current business model is dying, and it's impossible to put the genie back in the bottle. That NEVER works.
Then again, one caveat, I know a lot of anime fans who don't earn a lot of money, given where I lived and what I have done, so my experiences may also be different then yours.
To be honest, I don't understand the "hurting the Japanese" argument that people give, either. The product is meant to succeed in its original market, based on broadcast advertising and DVD sales. Foreign distribution is something that's gravy for them.
Can anyone explain why this should convince me to not download?
Can anyone explain why this should convince me to not download?
Can anyone explain why this should convince me to not download?
Seconded. :3
And don't give the moral reason, because as we can plainly see, it's stopped nobody so far. ;)
@arstal: I still disagree that a lot of fans would find that acceptable, but I guess that depends on what you count as "a lot" and what type of fans you are in general contact with.
I agree though that alternate forms of income, such as merchandising, should be looked at, but not so much as a replacement as the primary source of income. More so an extra source to help out the primary source of DVD sales, which will probably remain primary for a while. It's not like there's much of a shortage of merchandise as you can see online and in dealer rooms, and a lot of anime merch probably wouldn't sell all that well in big chain stores, depending on how well their anime section does, I guess. It doesn't help that some major stores (Media Play and Suncoast) that actually sold anime merch are either dead or all but.
Finding those alternate sources of income is a bit tricky.
I agree though that alternate forms of income, such as merchandising, should be looked at, but not so much as a replacement as the primary source of income. More so an extra source to help out the primary source of DVD sales, which will probably remain primary for a while. It's not like there's much of a shortage of merchandise as you can see online and in dealer rooms, and a lot of anime merch probably wouldn't sell all that well in big chain stores, depending on how well their anime section does, I guess. It doesn't help that some major stores (Media Play and Suncoast) that actually sold anime merch are either dead or all but.
Finding those alternate sources of income is a bit tricky.
Foreign distribution is something that's gravy for them.
It's not just gravy. The anime industry has ALWAYS needed American money to support them, ever since the very beginning. Take a look at shows like Astro Boy, Gigantor, and Speed Racer. They'd send a lot of their shows over here to be heavily Americanized and become part of the American mainstream. Most of the shows I watched on Nickelodeon in the 80's (Noozles, Maya the Bee, the L'il Bits) was anime and I never knew it.
You just can't do something like Speed Racer anymore. Everyone recognizes the cultural significance of anime, and they will give hell to whoever attempts to Americanize it and bring it mainstream. Just look at anything 4Kids has done in the past decade.
So no, the American audience is not just gravy to the Japanese companies. They've needed our money ever since the 60's.
@arstal "which means less glompers and 4channers" you couldn't be more wrong there, all the 4channers do is download anime and laugh their asses off at the mere thought of buying anime
anyway it is my opinion that there is a "duality" in the American anime fanbase, the "IRL" community (people who buy all their anime on dvd or watch it on tv) and the "internet community" (people who download fansubs etc etc)
anyway it is my opinion that there is a "duality" in the American anime fanbase, the "IRL" community (people who buy all their anime on dvd or watch it on tv) and the "internet community" (people who download fansubs etc etc)
Scott, that doesn't mean Japan "needs" American sales at all. All it means is that early anime, such as Astro Boy and Gigantor, fit an American paradigm (and for that age, it was likely the early Disney-style animation influence and Tezuka and others borrowed) that could be effectively marketed overseas. Economic case studies have proven that that the majority of profits of businesses come from the domestic market. Those 80's shows you listed, judging from the gap in air dates between Japan and the states (ranging from 4 to almost 30 years with regards to Maya the Bee, according to wikipedia), American companies scouted out those shows, as they probably thought they fit the broadcast paradigm at the era. In other words, America was probably the country that cared about those programs, not Japan. This aligns with the fact that a lot of animation intended for American broadcast (such as Transformers, technically a US property) was outsourced to Japan and Korea for lower costs.
In general case studies show that successful international ventures will cater to people's tastes. Since anime companies have thus far made little effort to align with US anime tastes (whether it be price or product), it shows that we're generally not a big deal.
In general case studies show that successful international ventures will cater to people's tastes. Since anime companies have thus far made little effort to align with US anime tastes (whether it be price or product), it shows that we're generally not a big deal.
2. I honestly don't see why I should have to pay to watch something just because I was born here and not where it's airing. Yeah, I get that there's advertising in the locality where it's airing, but I don't buy stuff I see in commercials. Does that mean I'm stealing American TV?
^This is a point I strongly agree with and have also mentioned once.
I think it would be great if the companies could band together with the fansubbers in order to make it "more legal." Maybe something like fansubbers have to host their downloads on a certain company's site in order to increase traffic while viewing ads on the side...
*sigh* a boy can dream can't he....
[quote]@arstal "which means less glompers and 4channers" you couldn't be more wrong there, all the 4channers do is download anime and laugh their asses off at the mere thought of buying anime
anyway it is my opinion that there is a "duality" in the American anime fanbase, the "IRL" community (people who buy all their anime on dvd or watch it on tv) and the "internet community" (people who download fansubs etc etc)[/quote]
I agree with that. The issue is people in the internet community are unwilling to go into the IRL community- as they don't see a reason to do it, unless they want the schwag. That's the way most of my friends are, and many of them have disposable income. (a couple don't)
These people are not lost sales to the anime companies, as they would just stop watching if fansubs disappeared. (They'd just go play WoW more or something)
In my case- it's a question of do I want to watch it now free, or get a slightly better translation, but wait a year and pay through the nose for it? I know in my case I am willing to pay for legal translations. The issue in my case is cost+ waiting. I am not willing to wait 2-3 years for a series to get up to date. Cost per episode I'd be willing to pay probably would be no more then $3, or what I pay for a comic book. (I get about 4-5 comic books a month, that has replaced anime for me in terms of fandom these days, outside of Slayers Revolution and Wagaya no Oinari-sama- I only watch 1-2 shows at a time)
anyway it is my opinion that there is a "duality" in the American anime fanbase, the "IRL" community (people who buy all their anime on dvd or watch it on tv) and the "internet community" (people who download fansubs etc etc)[/quote]
I agree with that. The issue is people in the internet community are unwilling to go into the IRL community- as they don't see a reason to do it, unless they want the schwag. That's the way most of my friends are, and many of them have disposable income. (a couple don't)
These people are not lost sales to the anime companies, as they would just stop watching if fansubs disappeared. (They'd just go play WoW more or something)
In my case- it's a question of do I want to watch it now free, or get a slightly better translation, but wait a year and pay through the nose for it? I know in my case I am willing to pay for legal translations. The issue in my case is cost+ waiting. I am not willing to wait 2-3 years for a series to get up to date. Cost per episode I'd be willing to pay probably would be no more then $3, or what I pay for a comic book. (I get about 4-5 comic books a month, that has replaced anime for me in terms of fandom these days, outside of Slayers Revolution and Wagaya no Oinari-sama- I only watch 1-2 shows at a time)
^This is one argument I have never fully understood. Does it mean you make sure you don't download movies, region 2 DVD rips, and anime that airs on satellite channels? (I'm assuming that such channels are like HBO in the US in which you have to pay extra to watch, please correct me if this is wrong)
Scott, sure those shows came out over here and were heavily Americanized, but I sincerely doubt bringing them over here was an integral part of their survivability. I find it a bit silly to create entertainment for a particular culture, and then rely on international rights to keep the business profitable. It should be profitable at home before you need to worry about going abroad.
Maybe if the show bombs at home and the international market loves it, then it's important, but I doubt that's how Japanese companies are designing anime.
Maybe if the show bombs at home and the international market loves it, then it's important, but I doubt that's how Japanese companies are designing anime.
Yeah, I did my research paper for TV history on Astro Boy, and I found that the Japanese companies considered the American interest as gravy (Mushi Pro was a terribly run studio and only survived because they were good at licensing ancillary goods), and the Americans basically just went "Oh look, cheap content".
Trying to argue with you people is like walking into a Baptist Church and trying to get them to bow to the east 5 times a day.
At this point all I'm going to say is that buying DVDs makes sense, sure merchandising is cool but will never replace DVD sales (tell me someone that has more value in swag then I have in DVDs and then I'll believe you), I like dubs and so does a large part of the market as can be backed up by nearly every animenews source out there and even the people who run this place admit, 30% of the revenue for an anime series during planning is expected to come from overseas sources, they HAVE been catering to us lately otherwise how would you explain the HUGE burst in popularity that is probably a large part of the reason you are here now talking to us, and lastly for the love OF GOD PEOPLE STOP TRYING TO SAY YOUR OPINION AS FACT.
If you're going to say something that is your opinion, say that it is your opinion. Example of what I'm saying DON'T do: " Since anime companies have thus far made little effort to align with US anime tastes (whether it be price or product), it shows that we're generally not a big deal." - HOW have anime companies made little effort? How can you POSSIBLY quantify effort!? At least back up a statement like this with some sort of proof or fact that can be used to support this what would otherwise be an opinionated claim.
And on that note, I'm done with my notes, and I'd like to dismiss myself on account of the fact that I predict that the next response will simply just restate something someone commented about earlier but didn't bother to read.
At this point all I'm going to say is that buying DVDs makes sense, sure merchandising is cool but will never replace DVD sales (tell me someone that has more value in swag then I have in DVDs and then I'll believe you), I like dubs and so does a large part of the market as can be backed up by nearly every animenews source out there and even the people who run this place admit, 30% of the revenue for an anime series during planning is expected to come from overseas sources, they HAVE been catering to us lately otherwise how would you explain the HUGE burst in popularity that is probably a large part of the reason you are here now talking to us, and lastly for the love OF GOD PEOPLE STOP TRYING TO SAY YOUR OPINION AS FACT.
If you're going to say something that is your opinion, say that it is your opinion. Example of what I'm saying DON'T do: " Since anime companies have thus far made little effort to align with US anime tastes (whether it be price or product), it shows that we're generally not a big deal." - HOW have anime companies made little effort? How can you POSSIBLY quantify effort!? At least back up a statement like this with some sort of proof or fact that can be used to support this what would otherwise be an opinionated claim.
And on that note, I'm done with my notes, and I'd like to dismiss myself on account of the fact that I predict that the next response will simply just restate something someone commented about earlier but didn't bother to read.
And also, in Notenki Memoirs, Yasuhiro Takeda says that Gainax basically makes all of their money off of ancillary goods.
So much for ending your notes Heero... >_>
But seriously, listen to Heero he's smarter than most of us -_-
But seriously, listen to Heero he's smarter than most of us -_-
Hey, hey, let’s keep it civil. :/
But Heero, geez dude, calm down. No need to break out the caps. :P Nobody’s trying to be antagonistic here and I think thus far we’ve carried along a conversation of differing opinions in a civilized manner. I’m sorry if I’ve presumed certain economic terms and case studies to be fairly well known. I’ve tried not to write essays here, but here’s one for your convenience.
Typically, when any company attempts to break into an international market, they attempt to cater not only to the tastes of the people who will already purchase their product, but also those who have never heard of them/have no interest in said product to begin with. One of the easiest examples of this is McDonalds, and I’m sure that people here who have been to other countries have seen that the McDonalds menu varies widely depending on location and culture. Japan typically has smaller (but tastier, in my opinion!) portions compared to the states. Hong Kong serves a sausage egg mcmuffin throughout the day and not just at breakfast.
As has been mentioned many times before, anime is a niche market. My above statement clarifies this, in that while many series have been ported over, some with very high levels of popularly and sales success, it is extremely rare for a Japanese animation company to make a product that specifically caters to more broad USA tastes. As of now, I can name three: The Animatrix, the upcoming Batman short animation collection, and, to a lesser extent, Escaflowne: The Movie (the Escaflowne tv series bombed badly in Japan, but a movie was produced largely due to popularity overseas). I suppose you could count the ADV sponsored Bubblegum Crisis 2040, though the show sucked. ^_^ In this manner, anime lacks general focus here and in no way reaches its range potential. Thus, despite rising popularity, anime remains a niche market.
Why is it ideal for a company to cater to local tastes? Maintaining the market is one important aspect. Even in today’s niche market, though anime is “growing in popularity” (so say distributors), distributors (and producers) are clearly not setting price and release trends within normal standards of the US dvd market, thus the backlash. As a result, companies (well, some of them) have responded appropriately with promises (and results that reflect) quicker release times, box set initial releases, and lower prices that are competitive with other local products. If this trend continues, the market will meet with some recovery. However, at the same time they have made little effort to push the content of their product outside the range of their “fans.”
This drops back to my base argument, which is that anime that is in the US is made for Japan and generally not initially considered for international audiences. A fanbase has risen up around said product, but it is still an exotic mystery to the vast majority of people in the United States. Thus, it is likely that Japan is the primary market and moneymaker for Japanese animation companies and sales in the United States are considered a bonus at best. This falls in line with what I previously stated, that being that economic case studies have proven that that the majority of profits of businesses come from the domestic market, and as an addendum, it is the domestic market that will ultimately support a company, not international expansion.
Ughhhh, too long. I’m sorry. ^^;
But Heero, geez dude, calm down. No need to break out the caps. :P Nobody’s trying to be antagonistic here and I think thus far we’ve carried along a conversation of differing opinions in a civilized manner. I’m sorry if I’ve presumed certain economic terms and case studies to be fairly well known. I’ve tried not to write essays here, but here’s one for your convenience.
" Since anime companies have thus far made little effort to align with US anime tastes (whether it be price or product), it shows that we're generally not a big deal." - HOW have anime companies made little effort? How can you POSSIBLY quantify effort!?
Typically, when any company attempts to break into an international market, they attempt to cater not only to the tastes of the people who will already purchase their product, but also those who have never heard of them/have no interest in said product to begin with. One of the easiest examples of this is McDonalds, and I’m sure that people here who have been to other countries have seen that the McDonalds menu varies widely depending on location and culture. Japan typically has smaller (but tastier, in my opinion!) portions compared to the states. Hong Kong serves a sausage egg mcmuffin throughout the day and not just at breakfast.
As has been mentioned many times before, anime is a niche market. My above statement clarifies this, in that while many series have been ported over, some with very high levels of popularly and sales success, it is extremely rare for a Japanese animation company to make a product that specifically caters to more broad USA tastes. As of now, I can name three: The Animatrix, the upcoming Batman short animation collection, and, to a lesser extent, Escaflowne: The Movie (the Escaflowne tv series bombed badly in Japan, but a movie was produced largely due to popularity overseas). I suppose you could count the ADV sponsored Bubblegum Crisis 2040, though the show sucked. ^_^ In this manner, anime lacks general focus here and in no way reaches its range potential. Thus, despite rising popularity, anime remains a niche market.
Why is it ideal for a company to cater to local tastes? Maintaining the market is one important aspect. Even in today’s niche market, though anime is “growing in popularity” (so say distributors), distributors (and producers) are clearly not setting price and release trends within normal standards of the US dvd market, thus the backlash. As a result, companies (well, some of them) have responded appropriately with promises (and results that reflect) quicker release times, box set initial releases, and lower prices that are competitive with other local products. If this trend continues, the market will meet with some recovery. However, at the same time they have made little effort to push the content of their product outside the range of their “fans.”
This drops back to my base argument, which is that anime that is in the US is made for Japan and generally not initially considered for international audiences. A fanbase has risen up around said product, but it is still an exotic mystery to the vast majority of people in the United States. Thus, it is likely that Japan is the primary market and moneymaker for Japanese animation companies and sales in the United States are considered a bonus at best. This falls in line with what I previously stated, that being that economic case studies have proven that that the majority of profits of businesses come from the domestic market, and as an addendum, it is the domestic market that will ultimately support a company, not international expansion.
Ughhhh, too long. I’m sorry. ^^;
First I just want to say that when I put on caps I don't mean it as a form of shouting though I realize that's usually what it's meant for. I sorta use it like a highlighter or italics (since idk if bbcode works here or not) so I'm sorry if it seems like I'm being overly aggressive.
And Darkcyder, sorry it was that long, but that really was my abridged version of summing up everything....lol.
Ok, I've understood why it's important to cater to audiences, but all I've been trying to say is that although they haven't necessarily EXPLICITLY catered to the overseas market, it usually does end up being considered during the planning phases. There's so much I could say here, from how Japan's largest export (and by a large margin) is intellectual media, or how Japan is heavily dependant upon foreign demand of their exports for their economy, or why they chose Yun Koga to do the characters for Gundam 00, but they all take to long to explain and don't change this fact: Regardless as to whether they cater directly to us or not doesn't change the fact that if foreign financial endeavors fail for them, then there WILL undeniably be a significant drop in the overall market for anime. Subsequently there will also be a large drop in conventions and con attendance, and also it will be MUCH harder to get any "schwag" anymore outside of Japan, which personally even though I've done everything from importing a figure to importing a Japanese Xbox 360 just to play idolm@ster, it doesn't mean EMS is anywhere near as fast as UPSing from Virginia.
Getting back on track, simply put, if American support drops, you will see fewer shows, of probably lower quality, and a lot more of the same stuff you've seen over and over again (like Jean Claude Van Damme movies) since nowhere near as many companies would be willing to take as much risk trying new stuff out. To put it bluntly, although they wouldn't fall out by any means or come close to, things WOULD start to suck for us, and maybe a little for them.
(oh and, I don't mind long explanations. If you look at my post history I think you'll be amused at how long some of mine get over simple things....XD)
And Darkcyder, sorry it was that long, but that really was my abridged version of summing up everything....lol.
Ok, I've understood why it's important to cater to audiences, but all I've been trying to say is that although they haven't necessarily EXPLICITLY catered to the overseas market, it usually does end up being considered during the planning phases. There's so much I could say here, from how Japan's largest export (and by a large margin) is intellectual media, or how Japan is heavily dependant upon foreign demand of their exports for their economy, or why they chose Yun Koga to do the characters for Gundam 00, but they all take to long to explain and don't change this fact: Regardless as to whether they cater directly to us or not doesn't change the fact that if foreign financial endeavors fail for them, then there WILL undeniably be a significant drop in the overall market for anime. Subsequently there will also be a large drop in conventions and con attendance, and also it will be MUCH harder to get any "schwag" anymore outside of Japan, which personally even though I've done everything from importing a figure to importing a Japanese Xbox 360 just to play idolm@ster, it doesn't mean EMS is anywhere near as fast as UPSing from Virginia.
Getting back on track, simply put, if American support drops, you will see fewer shows, of probably lower quality, and a lot more of the same stuff you've seen over and over again (like Jean Claude Van Damme movies) since nowhere near as many companies would be willing to take as much risk trying new stuff out. To put it bluntly, although they wouldn't fall out by any means or come close to, things WOULD start to suck for us, and maybe a little for them.
(oh and, I don't mind long explanations. If you look at my post history I think you'll be amused at how long some of mine get over simple things....XD)
No offence friend but a lot of stuff you've said is inaccurate.
First of all, the major gripe I have is that you think that if you buy the DVDs of a localized/dubbed version of a show, you actually support the original animators?
No you don't. The companies that reap the profits of DVD sales in the US/UK are the Localization companies themselves. they buy the license, sell it and make a profit. A Nice large profit.
Secondly, you talk as if Dubs are BETTER than Subbed anime with the original japanese audio, and if that notion is the norm with most fans. Simply put, it's not. A lot of people HATE dubs because of how crappily the voices are done. Code Geass is one such example. Most of the voices barely suit the characters that we're used to having seen the Japanese versions.
Thirdly, the reason Japanese companies are going after raw uploaders is because a lot of JAPANESE people download these raws instead of buying their local DVDs. This hurts the LOCAL industry quite badly. Japanese studios don't care if Foreign countries watch their stuff (except for maybe Gonzo) nor are they that "internationally" conscious yet.
And on top of stuff like censoring, changing the story e.t.c, well lets just say Dubs do a lot more damage than good.
I AGREE, the service Gonzo started is smart. I wouldn't mind paying around 5USD for an "Officially fansubbed" episode from the actual Studio. That would mean supporting the actual STUDIO not the Dubbing company. If Japanese Animation studios just released their DVDs with an English subtitle, I'd buy those.
SOME dubs do merit watching, like Hellsing, GTO e.t.c, but more or less, most dubs just plain suck.
Secondly @Heero Yuy, the American market has NO influence on what gets produced in Japan. It's the Japanese market that anime is catered to. Whatever the US likes? the Dubbing companies take. Simple. And then said dubbing companies make a HUGE profit if they localize correctly and get a good anime liscensed.
First of all, the major gripe I have is that you think that if you buy the DVDs of a localized/dubbed version of a show, you actually support the original animators?
No you don't. The companies that reap the profits of DVD sales in the US/UK are the Localization companies themselves. they buy the license, sell it and make a profit. A Nice large profit.
Secondly, you talk as if Dubs are BETTER than Subbed anime with the original japanese audio, and if that notion is the norm with most fans. Simply put, it's not. A lot of people HATE dubs because of how crappily the voices are done. Code Geass is one such example. Most of the voices barely suit the characters that we're used to having seen the Japanese versions.
Thirdly, the reason Japanese companies are going after raw uploaders is because a lot of JAPANESE people download these raws instead of buying their local DVDs. This hurts the LOCAL industry quite badly. Japanese studios don't care if Foreign countries watch their stuff (except for maybe Gonzo) nor are they that "internationally" conscious yet.
And on top of stuff like censoring, changing the story e.t.c, well lets just say Dubs do a lot more damage than good.
I AGREE, the service Gonzo started is smart. I wouldn't mind paying around 5USD for an "Officially fansubbed" episode from the actual Studio. That would mean supporting the actual STUDIO not the Dubbing company. If Japanese Animation studios just released their DVDs with an English subtitle, I'd buy those.
SOME dubs do merit watching, like Hellsing, GTO e.t.c, but more or less, most dubs just plain suck.
Secondly @Heero Yuy, the American market has NO influence on what gets produced in Japan. It's the Japanese market that anime is catered to. Whatever the US likes? the Dubbing companies take. Simple. And then said dubbing companies make a HUGE profit if they localize correctly and get a good anime liscensed.
Not to be a kill joy, but intellectual media isn't even in the top ten of Japan's highest exports, unless you're only counting the US (which is now second after China for receiving most of Japan's exports).
http://www.buyusa.gov/japan/en/mom.html
Anyways, you're probably right about cons and schwag, but as for the "same stuff you've seen over and over again" and the "risk of trying new stuff"... meh. They've already fell into the same trap today. :P Besides, unless the rest of Asia goes down too, I doubt it's going to affect the number and quality of shows as much as you think it is.
http://www.buyusa.gov/japan/en/mom.html
Anyways, you're probably right about cons and schwag, but as for the "same stuff you've seen over and over again" and the "risk of trying new stuff"... meh. They've already fell into the same trap today. :P Besides, unless the rest of Asia goes down too, I doubt it's going to affect the number and quality of shows as much as you think it is.
I'll tell you why I download fansubs.
One Piece's Sanji with a SUCKER. Don't even get me started on the US opening.
One Piece's Sanji with a SUCKER. Don't even get me started on the US opening.
Fair warning Yuusuke, just skip down, I'm going to correct setsuken first.
@Setsuken: First off I just want to say I have no clue where the heck you're pulling all of these accusations from or any of your information for that matter. One, if you buy localized you ARE supporting the original creators. When a show is licensed, a local company pays a licensing fee, and based upon how much the Japanese side wants for it, licenses have gone from several thousands for no-name shows to several millions for bigger titles. And when an entire big name 26 episode show's budget is usually around 10 million USD at most, that can be a HUGE boost to the original producers. Thus, there IS an incentive for them to make at least a little effort to sell to foreign markets.
Second, I never ONCE said dubs were better than subs. All I said was the average viewer prefers them. This is verifiable by almost every anime news outlet out there, and if you don't believe me, heck even God Len and DMV and Gia will admit it. Personally I prefer RAW altogether since I get to practice my Japanese (slow-speaking characters like Yuki help your vocab too btw) and you don't have to worry at all about text on the screen, and yes I like dubs too depending on who's doing the production as I've already made evident.
Third, when the heck did I ever say anything about Japanese Uploaders and RAWs?! And pardon me if I come across as crude for saying this but isn't that kinda obvious that they hurt the market? I understand the whole argument you're trying to make is that they don't care about us for illegally downloading when they're busy with them, and when a show isn't licensed where you're downloading it I personally really don't care! I do it all the time! My argument has never been against downloading non-licensed, it's only been against it when it has been licensed and is at least somewhat available.
I'll even admit that when a company licenses a show I don't drop it immediately, especially when it's near the end. Usually I'll finish watching fansubs of it all the way through while MAYBE buying a volume or two when it first comes out if I REALLY liked it's beginning, but usually I wait until it finishes or gets to a point I'd consider it's really worth it and then I just buy it all at once.
I'm not here to condone you on the legality, and I'm certainly not here to pose the whole guilty trip bull**** that ADV likes to impose. All I'm saying is if you liked a show alot when you saw it fansubbed, you can at least vote with your dollar and buy a volume or two and just flip it to subs only if you hate the dub.
OH and on your comment about all dubs sucking, well I'm going to ignore the whole brashness of that word choice, but at least have the guts to admit that just because you don't like a dub doesn't automatically mean it sucks. There's a difference between a personal opinion and an objective opinion. If you think most dubs suck, that's fine, just say that "I think" rather than just "all dubs suck". You really can't quantify the quality of a dub, so you can't factually say "this dub sucks" unless it's your own opinion (objectively you can however, Example: In an objective opinion not influenced by my own, One Piece's dub sucks.)
And in any case I'm going to stop there and get back to Yuusuke since he's been very concise and respectful so far.
[b]@Yuusuke:[b] Sorry for the long wait, now: According to US Commercial Service page you linked me to, although I couldn't entirely figure out what part you're talking about when it comes to a Top 10 type listing, but when you scroll down to "Best U.S. Export Prospects", you'll find things like Education & Training Services and Computer Software listed. Intellectual property (I use the term media in this case since it means basically the same thing to me at least and it sounds less politically correct) as you may already know (pardon my re-explaining if you do) is technically any form of stored information that is owned in the same manor a piece of property is. Computer software and data, and education are considered intellectual property for example. And even though it's not intellectual property, for our argument you'll even find Tourism on that list... I'm not going to argue on the particulars as to how the US govt. categorizes everything in to weird groups at times, but in any case I think you get my message.
If there is something on that page though I'm overlooking or you were trying to emphasize, or perhaps if there was another source you want to show me then I'd be happy to look closer (I don't mind being proven wrong in this case since there's tons out there that I'd like to learn before I get my passport renewed and hopefully get to head over there (just two more weeks!)).
Oh and about "same stuff you've seen over and over again", that was my own speculation based on what I've learned over the past few years with company markets similar to these (Hollywood for example can sometimes give you a good model to compare to if you look at it's history and trends). I wouldn't be too surprised though if it wasn't impacted much as you say. Though I definitely agree with you on the series selection as of late being a little stale, lol.
@Setsuken: First off I just want to say I have no clue where the heck you're pulling all of these accusations from or any of your information for that matter. One, if you buy localized you ARE supporting the original creators. When a show is licensed, a local company pays a licensing fee, and based upon how much the Japanese side wants for it, licenses have gone from several thousands for no-name shows to several millions for bigger titles. And when an entire big name 26 episode show's budget is usually around 10 million USD at most, that can be a HUGE boost to the original producers. Thus, there IS an incentive for them to make at least a little effort to sell to foreign markets.
Second, I never ONCE said dubs were better than subs. All I said was the average viewer prefers them. This is verifiable by almost every anime news outlet out there, and if you don't believe me, heck even God Len and DMV and Gia will admit it. Personally I prefer RAW altogether since I get to practice my Japanese (slow-speaking characters like Yuki help your vocab too btw) and you don't have to worry at all about text on the screen, and yes I like dubs too depending on who's doing the production as I've already made evident.
Third, when the heck did I ever say anything about Japanese Uploaders and RAWs?! And pardon me if I come across as crude for saying this but isn't that kinda obvious that they hurt the market? I understand the whole argument you're trying to make is that they don't care about us for illegally downloading when they're busy with them, and when a show isn't licensed where you're downloading it I personally really don't care! I do it all the time! My argument has never been against downloading non-licensed, it's only been against it when it has been licensed and is at least somewhat available.
I'll even admit that when a company licenses a show I don't drop it immediately, especially when it's near the end. Usually I'll finish watching fansubs of it all the way through while MAYBE buying a volume or two when it first comes out if I REALLY liked it's beginning, but usually I wait until it finishes or gets to a point I'd consider it's really worth it and then I just buy it all at once.
I'm not here to condone you on the legality, and I'm certainly not here to pose the whole guilty trip bull**** that ADV likes to impose. All I'm saying is if you liked a show alot when you saw it fansubbed, you can at least vote with your dollar and buy a volume or two and just flip it to subs only if you hate the dub.
OH and on your comment about all dubs sucking, well I'm going to ignore the whole brashness of that word choice, but at least have the guts to admit that just because you don't like a dub doesn't automatically mean it sucks. There's a difference between a personal opinion and an objective opinion. If you think most dubs suck, that's fine, just say that "I think" rather than just "all dubs suck". You really can't quantify the quality of a dub, so you can't factually say "this dub sucks" unless it's your own opinion (objectively you can however, Example: In an objective opinion not influenced by my own, One Piece's dub sucks.)
And in any case I'm going to stop there and get back to Yuusuke since he's been very concise and respectful so far.
[b]@Yuusuke:[b] Sorry for the long wait, now: According to US Commercial Service page you linked me to, although I couldn't entirely figure out what part you're talking about when it comes to a Top 10 type listing, but when you scroll down to "Best U.S. Export Prospects", you'll find things like Education & Training Services and Computer Software listed. Intellectual property (I use the term media in this case since it means basically the same thing to me at least and it sounds less politically correct) as you may already know (pardon my re-explaining if you do) is technically any form of stored information that is owned in the same manor a piece of property is. Computer software and data, and education are considered intellectual property for example. And even though it's not intellectual property, for our argument you'll even find Tourism on that list... I'm not going to argue on the particulars as to how the US govt. categorizes everything in to weird groups at times, but in any case I think you get my message.
If there is something on that page though I'm overlooking or you were trying to emphasize, or perhaps if there was another source you want to show me then I'd be happy to look closer (I don't mind being proven wrong in this case since there's tons out there that I'd like to learn before I get my passport renewed and hopefully get to head over there (just two more weeks!)).
Oh and about "same stuff you've seen over and over again", that was my own speculation based on what I've learned over the past few years with company markets similar to these (Hollywood for example can sometimes give you a good model to compare to if you look at it's history and trends). I wouldn't be too surprised though if it wasn't impacted much as you say. Though I definitely agree with you on the series selection as of late being a little stale, lol.
Dude, a prospect is not an export. It is a probability of advancement, success, profit, etc. The webpage is saying that the categories you listed have a good chance of becoming a major export (to the US), but are currently (as of 2007) not.
These are the points I highlighted, respectively listed under items "R" and "V." As you can see, there is no indication of media being a top world export whatsoever (and you need to remember that the US is the largest importer of Japanese goods as well). As I said above, intellectual media (possibly listed as "computer and electronic products," though the term is not specific) may be a top 10 US import of Japanese products, though clearly that is not enough to rank it in Japan's top ten exports.
"Top 10 Exports (Japan to world)
automobiles, electronic components, automobile parts, steel, optical instruments, prime motors, imaging equipment, organic compound, electrical apparatus, computer parts
"Top 10 Japanese Exports to U.S
transportation equipment, computer and electronic products, machinery, chemicals, electrical equipment and component, fabricated metal products, plastics and rubber products, primary metal manufacturing, nonmetallic mineral products, paper"
These are the points I highlighted, respectively listed under items "R" and "V." As you can see, there is no indication of media being a top world export whatsoever (and you need to remember that the US is the largest importer of Japanese goods as well). As I said above, intellectual media (possibly listed as "computer and electronic products," though the term is not specific) may be a top 10 US import of Japanese products, though clearly that is not enough to rank it in Japan's top ten exports.
"Top 10 Exports (Japan to world)
automobiles, electronic components, automobile parts, steel, optical instruments, prime motors, imaging equipment, organic compound, electrical apparatus, computer parts
"Top 10 Japanese Exports to U.S
transportation equipment, computer and electronic products, machinery, chemicals, electrical equipment and component, fabricated metal products, plastics and rubber products, primary metal manufacturing, nonmetallic mineral products, paper"
I had a feeling that was the part you were referring to but I wasn't sure. In any case, sites like that usually refer to industrial type goods mostly so products like what we're talking about get grouped in other categories more often than not. Regardless, I think talking about the country as a whole (although interesting) is a little off-topic for what we're talking about. Sorry I sent us off on that tangent by using it as one of three examples, though it was interesting. So besides that.....uhhhh.....where were we again?
I think companies would bold well to do what gonzo does, charge per episode download but release next to japanese airing. They had ad supported streaming as well which totally works for those under 18 and those who really don't have the room to buy anime in their tight budgets. Problem is Japanese companies seem to hate outside markets~ They Wouldn't really care if their work was never seen outside of their countries borders. Once I see a fansub I have no reason to buy it, only anime I would ever buy on DVD is the special edition gurren laggan. I really wish they released it on bluray though since larger media means less compression is needed, means higher video quality but DVD quality is more than fine for an animated show.
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