This is old. Like two years old.

I mean, there are bigger things to come like a disappearance, a winter detective hunt, and a certain Sasaki (and I won't go into more). All bigger things that may be animated once KyoAni goes into the latter novels.

~

That being said, on the subject, it has been suggested that Haruhi, after the concert, should just learn to settle and live a 'normal' life, or rather, an extraordinary 'normal' life.

Which I disagree to the fullest because it was that hunt for aliens, time travellers and espers that created them in her world, and made the plausible (and the way the show presented them makes them rather plausibe even in our world)

You could say I'm a fan of Suzumiya as a person. I could say 'i don't know why...' but that's a lie. I do know why.

I still am a fan of aBe Yoshito works. He did the designs for Lain, and NieA_7 (precursor to Haibane Renmei) was his idea.

Essentially:

Lain + NieA - aBe + moe = Haruhi Suzumiya.

For me, Haruhi Suzumiya was the closest to a continuation for NieA_7. But even then, Haruhi is something entirely to herself.

cool i wonder where season 2 is have not heard from it for ages

I just realized this is a show, and they have covered other cool shows (like Cowboy Bebop)

With that in mind, I'll throw in my two cents worth, and everything I had to say.

~

Did I mention NieA_7 ?

I did.

I loved that show. It was the show aBe worked on just after Serial Experiments Lain, and NieA was something of a conceptual character that aBe conceived of while working on Lain. And the character that I liked was NieA.

On the outside, one would see an incredibly self, useless, good-for-nothing bum, whose penchant for scrounging, building worthless contraptions, and causing damage in the process would turn off many people. But there was also an effervescene to her, a free spirit, coupled with an eccentricity, one that is so absent from most female characters.

And, most interesting of all, NieA is an alien. But she's not 'just' an alien... she's an udner-class, 'untouchable' alien. And yet, she fights to try and define herself in the larger norm.

Her co-character (the show treats her as a protagonist, but I think otherwise) is her caretaker, the cram student Mayuko. Living in poverty, and working hard both to support herself and do well in exams.

And I mention this show, 'NieA_7", because, while it had an extraordinary element to it (the 'alien' invasion, which was more of a bunch of extra-terresterial immigrants settling down in Japan), it also had the very real element of poverty, and of the struggle for students to enter univiersities through the cram school system.

NieA_7 edned prematurely. Of course, the series was nothing big, but it left an impact for me, and for a long while, I longed for a return to NieA, or at least a character that was 'just like her'. Kaolla Su and Coboy bebop's Ed don't count, because theya re not predominant character, just side-characters that we see as curiosities.

~

Then Haruhi turned up.

I mean, there is one thing that I do find distasteful about Haruhi. Whereas the most distasteful thing about NieA is her incredibly selfishness (she can be incorrigible), in Haruhi, she's incredibly perverse (but she's not that selfish, since she's can be understanding) That fact alone (the perverseness), makes her a hard character.

But other then that, that's what I loved about Haruhi. She's an eccentric, a one-of-a-kind. I didn't really care whether Haruhi was voiced by Aya Hirano (stella voice actress0, or if the design of the entire anime was moe (I'm no real big moe fan). What I liked was Haruhi.

Yes, Kyon may be the narrator, yes, we do see things from his perspective, and he gives us the gravitas that prevents this show from becoming something like Azumanga Daioh, but it's Haruhi who defines the mystery of the show, and its beauty.

The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is not one of my top three shows without a reaosn. It shares a place along with Haibane Renmei and Cowboy Bebop for the awe it inspires, and the issues it raises. (and you can guess why Kyonshiro is my username)

~

While I know it isn't much, if there's one thing I hope can be raised in the show (if few of my views get aired)..... I want to mention that I always wanted a shoujo/josei version of the story to be told... from Haruhi's side.

Or better yet, replace Yuki and Mikuru with male versions, and yet retain that same awesome win that kept the novel and anime so cool.

Oh yeah, gender-bending Haruhi ahs a big thing, and a lot of people sem to like the female Kyon (Kyonko)... just like to mention that. But I would really like to see the story from Haruhi's side... provided it doesn't make her a stereotype tsundere.

Some other things I forgot to mention..... (and I better leave room for others)

The espers weren't lame. They were integral to explain how Haruhi's mind remains calm (Haruhi may have Nietzschean willpower, but she isn't exactly 'God' God. She still is 'human all too human')

And I liked Itsuki. A lot. It's what helps prevent this series from becoming too enamoured by its moe to be too much for the male crowd, and gives something for the disgruntled fangirls (and fujoshis). And, aside fromt hat, Itsuki is cool by my book (whether Johhny Yong Bosch or Daisuke Ono voices him) My favourite ? I think it's obvious, but, just as I loved NieA, I kinda love Haruhi, to a degree.

Cos' it's those certain kind of eccentrics that change the world.

And I sure would appreciate it if her story could be told, since we know Kyon's quite well.

Kyonshiro: Yeesh, essay much?

That said-- hello? We just did one of these on Dragon Ball Z. Jumping forward to Haruhi brings us *practically* up to date. So don't go whining about how "old" it is. =P

Telling people not to whine makes them whine.

I read the books and watched the show and left unconvinced that Haruhi has any god-like power. She doesn't do anything a god normally does, e.g. take sacrifices, solve problems supernaturally (instead causing them and expecting them to resolve themselves) or answer prayers. Creating living beings does not make you a god. The only conclusion I could come up with is that Haruhi is no god, but a witch.

What pisses me off the most about it all is that people treat her as a god anyway. My favorite argument to that end is that allegedly she is so powerful that she arbitrarily shuffled the episode order of the anime. And to what end? Just to confuse and infuriate people like me who don't think it's too much to ask to tell a story in an order that makes a shred of sense.

To be honest, I was fully convinced that this show would be a monumental flop when it hit the United States and the fact that it apparently didn't doesn't help much. I don't know why I even bother anymore. I'll just end up having my site hacked again.

WHEN IS HARUHI GONNA BE ON ADULT SWIM?

@Peter H:
NEVER AS LONG AS I HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT IT.

GOOD!

Is the podcast planned to just cover the material covered in the anime or the translated books as well?

I just saw the anime but I'm up for doing it. Just rewatched the series too back in December, so I'm pretty refreshed. Oh and Broadcast>DVD!

Tertiee: Both if possible. I'm gonna need to rely a bit on those who have read the novels though, as I've only seen the series.

Emo: We actually moved back the recording to Wednesday, since some of us have a final tomorrow that mandates focus and attention. P.S. your comment on the Otaku Debate was my favorite. Very diplomatic.

Well if you still need some filler I would be glad to do it. I'm assuming you guys use skype? Just message me if you need me. Username: emotoaster

[quote]I read the books and watched the show and left unconvinced that Haruhi has any god-like power. She doesn't do anything a god normally does, e.g. take sacrifices, solve problems supernaturally (instead causing them and expecting them to resolve themselves) or answer prayers. Creating living beings does not make you a god. The only conclusion I could come up with is that Haruhi is no god, but a witch.[/quote]

Haruhi isn't a witch.... at least a witch, or a God, is in control of his/her own powers. But Haruhi isn't.... she doesn't even know she has them.

And the definition is broad. If Haruhi was a Wiccan witch, well, that hardly sems the case. If she was a stereotypical witch, well, there's no broom.

And her pwoers aren't exactly 'magical'.

[quote]Just to confuse and infuriate people like me who don't think it's too much to ask to tell a story in an order that makes a shred of sense.[/quote]

Personally, I think the episode shuffling was done in the anime to dissuade it from being too much like the novel. The novel, for all its worth, was reading pretty much for a male demographic, and Haruhi is still more like a typical tsundere.

I remembered it was once said that Episode 14 was cast last to play on the 'Mary Sue' development in a different manner... because we know that Kyon ends up with Haruhi. But we don't want the immediate mush that comes out of the Remote Island, or the concert. No, it is that eternal moment in Episode 6, when Kyon kisses Haruhi (though reluctantly), that fans get what they wished. Mind you, the argument was better articulated elsewhere.

Also, the rearrangement of the timing makes it post-structuralist... it seeks to defy the 'typical' precepts of storytelling. Using later episodes as flash-forwards, it furthers the character development as opposed to just 'narrating the plot'

[quote]Kyonshiro: Yeesh, essay much?[/quote]

Well, gia.... I don't just like this sow. I love it.

I love it in that it has its on intellectual complexities. I don't even go into that entirely, but I felt necessary to compare it to an earlier show that had a similar character and concept, but didn't quite succeed.

[quote]That said-- hello? We just did one of these on Dragon Ball Z. Jumping forward to Haruhi brings us *practically* up to date.[/quote]

I know. I checked.

You also did one on Cowboy Bebop. I didn't know before I made that first comment. So, apologies on that whine.

Show some love by showing some fight.

I really want to join in but I've work tomorrow at 6.

Lunarmoth > Your pic is made of win.

Btw, that game featured in the pics is mugen, and the Haruhi character can be obtained here:

http://page.freett.com/choiya7/index.htm

For thsoe who don't know You can find out about the mugen engine here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.G.E.N

~

For the novels..... things get interesting later. The storyline has just been split into two, and in one of them, Kyon has met a previous schoolmate, who is the 'anti-Haruhi' (Sasaki), and so on.

The novels, for those who are disgruntled by KyoAni's time jumping, is told chronologically, but I preferred KyoAni's rendition since it's the time-jumping that makes the show more inetresting than the novel in that regard. (no offense, but the novel reads like something for... well, no comment)

~

Lunarmoth has an avatar of Lain here, and I wodner if he'll post again..... Haruhi isn't so much a witch as she's like Lain, a person with an extreme amount of pwoer who doesn't know it (yet). Lain found about it later, whereas Haruhi... well, she's another story.

@Kyonshiro:
Any merit that could have been had in showing everything out of order is nullified by the fact that several important plot points are shown before they become relevant in the main story. The worst of it is that we see characters in normal settings before they are even introduced; more than once I backtracked two or three episodes to make sure I was paying attention when a character I don't remember seeing before is shown as if everyone already knew them. That's just counterintuitive to me.

@Excel (just wondering, is that nod to Excel Saga ? Loved that series)

I'd counter that you are still following the story 'chronologically'.

You could always watch the series by DVD order (the chronological order), which pretty much fits what you wanted, but would downplay the intended buildup that KyoAni wanted.

Lets face it: Sasaki only turned up recently. There was the concert scene where KyoAni wanted to put their big budget on.

Oh, and about those plot points... while those plot points were revealed, a lot were hidden from us. We didn't know that Kyon kissed Haruhi, we didn't know WHY she did what she did three years ago (this exposition was place in the broadcast second last episode), and what would really happen if Haruhi gets mad (we only see the shingen briefly in episode 4, as opposed to Itsuki's full explanation in episode 13)

Also, while you may have found it counter-intuitive, I found it fun. You could say I get a kick out of paying attention to what each character did, and contrasting previous attitudes, reactions, and so on. It's a very... 'playful' series.

The key element that endears this show to me is Kyon's observations and commentary on Haruhi's many absurdities. Whether he's noting how ridiculous a particular idea of hers is, fuming at her utterly amoral approaches in getting what she wants or shrugging in resigned misery while following one of Haruhi's orders, Kyon makes this anime feel like some hilarious case-study of one character.

Overall, he's quite insightful (and believable) as a narrator.

Seconding Ivan M. Kyon is important, especially since he's our only root to reality. And yet at the same time, he is the only perspective by which we can approach the science fiction of TMoHS without feeling out of place.

For a comparison.... ABC's Lost has that same effect. It's actually completely sci-fi; there's a smoke monster, an island with an ancient history, time travel by astral projection, and all sorts of weird nonsense. But the show doesn't present them in a lame, campy sort of way. Instead, we see it from the eyes of spectators, people just like us, and it is the scientific concepts and normalities that are presented first before we see the really, really strange out this world bits.

And if there's one thing I do like about Kyon... it's his wit. It's rather English and black humour (the sort BBC comedies I made of) Crispin Freeman seemed to have played on that element a few times in the dub.

@Kyonshiro:
I'm a big fan of unconventional storytelling and all that but there are some rules that are just never to be broken.

When I downloaded the first episode on fansub, I seriously thought I got the wrong file. I couldn't watch more than two minutes of it without having to calm my gag reflex. As I was watching it I thought "Is this really the kind of thing the haters like these days?" (Several people I know who notoriously hate anime in general made exceptions for this show.) I mean, the titular character didn't appear at all during the first episode. I was assured by one of the fans that this is intentional but wasn't convinced until I saw the second episode, which is when I wrote off the "first" episode as a production error. A rather big production error, but if the show is as good as everyone says it must not have been that important. Things were finally picking up until about episode 4 when I noticed there were two or three characters I don't remember seeing, which is when I assumed I missed something. It wasn't until later when I realized that all of the episodes were shown out of order and I had to ask around as to the real order so I can stop questioning myself and pause the video every three minutes to take notes. Any show that would have me do something like that is more trouble than it's worth in my opinion, although I was intrigued enough to find the real order and watch it that way. I'm told after the fact that the true order is revealed through the next episode previews but unfortunately I never watch previews because I consider them spoilers. I admit there was a time in which I thought it was good (it has more than its fair share of "cool parts"), but when I wrote up my review, it was less than positive relative to every other review I had yet read. I posted it on my site late December 2006, then the ASOS atrocity decided to happen. On 22 December 2006, the same night as that horrid video announcing the license was released, I discovered my site was compromised. The front page was changed to a clone of the other pages that changed themselves to "The World As You Know It Is About To End" and all of my databases were cleared out. Whoever did it must have read how much I hated it all and successfully struck a nerve with me. Fortunately, I made a site backup just hours before it happened. For a long time I thought it was an overzealous fan responding to my review but the longer I think about it the less that seems likely to me. When I think about it, I think I deserved it because I wasn't making my site as secure as I could have but whatever, it's all behind me now (even though I made enemies out of former friends because of it) and now I take a lot of security measures to make sure that never happens again.

You may have been confused to the point of nodding to it just so you won't look uncool as I'm sure everyone who claims its a good thing did but I found it more enjoyable by watching the main story first and the auxiliary episodes as side stories afterward.

As for my name, I don't remember where I got it but I assure you it has no relation to anything you can think of.

Also the first guy to say "pnaah you just don't get it" will get a face full of my e-fist. I don't want to discuss this any more.

This sounds like it could be a fun one. John, do me a favor and check yo mic! On the last few podcasts your (John's) mic level has been super low, to the point that I need to turn up the volume just to try and make out what you said. Then Gia chimes in and practically blasts my car speakers out. So check yo mic or fix the editing or something, cause I wanna hear what you have to say!

@The Excel:

Pardon for replying, but, while I do respect your opinion, and I can understand where you're coming from, I do have one major beef in reply to one of the points you raise, to the point that I find it an accusation:

You may have been confused to the point of nodding to it just so you won't look uncool as I'm sure everyone who claims its a good thing did but I found it more enjoyable by watching the main story first and the auxiliary episodes as side stories afterward.

And this I disagree.

I'm not a 'cool' anime watcher. I'm not really into the 'in-thing' when it comes from anime. Lately, perhaps, but I'm not a fan of following the trend too much, and I'm not a fan of 'looking cool' just to save face.

You may have gotten fun out of watching the main story, and I did to some extent, but frankly, the main story, on its own, can feel a lot like a Mary Sue story. I mean, Haruhi is literally the perfect girl, Kyon is literally any possible guy, Yuki is your automaton (ala Evangelion's Rei) and I could go on. I can even raise one thing I disliked in the novel... when Haruhi blackmailed the president, Kyon actually AGREED to hold the camera and take the pictures. Sure, he tried o dissuade Mikuru, but he still gave in. At least in the anime they removed this.

But I'm not calling Haruhi cool just because 'everyone says it is cool'. Is it over-rated ? Yes. But it can stand on its own with some of the deeper, more complicated anime out there, like Haibane Renmei (one of my three top favourites, which Haruhi is another) and Texhnolyze (which is overly depressing)

Lastly, the whole 'you don't get it' argument is lame. Evangelion fans love to use it when it comes to their anime, and I feel like punching them in the face for that (yes, I dislike Evangelion, for a whole load of reasons). Also, people who don't like Haruhi can use that same argument. For me, I still contend this series has a deeper element that is often and most usually ignored.

And it is this deeper element that I feel have to argue for when it comes to the irregular placement. That very first episode was like Cloverfield; you are thrown into a bizarre home video with no idea what's going on. The premise, however is that, even though it's a home video of a very crappy movie, almost everything in it is true, as it is eventually revealed. They show the baseball episode before the 'revealation' episode, to give you an idea of what their pwoers are like. In this sense, I argue against the chronology here since I was interested in how KyoAni wanted to portray the character development, and how they wanted to present their ideas (each episode in the broadcast order is a progression of an idea)

Yes, it won't work with everybody. I udnerstand that. But, I did like it, and I refuse to accept the statement that I did so just to look cool, because that's far from the truth.

~

there are some rules that are just never to be broken.

I'm not exactly a absolutist or a relativist when it comes to the literary way, so I'd contend that argument on the basis that it takes some decent experimentation before we can be certain that some rules are meant to be broken (and science is filled with examples that previous laws have been defied. The same applies to, well, pretty much anything else)

~

So, your name has got nothing to do with Excel Saga ? A pity. I thought that was a very good anime.

@Kyonshiro:
You know what? You win. No matter how much I try my point isn't getting across. The implications of the whole series just don't agree with me and no matter how much I try to comprehend it I'll just end up opening old wounds for no good reason. So that's it, I fully concede to your argument because mine is stupid.

Man I love being the minority.

@Excel

And admittedly, I'll refuse to say that I 'win', because I do NOT consider your argument to be stupid at all. I do contend that, by stating that "(your) point isn't getting across at all" is the same as the "you don't just get it" argument. Nevertheless, there are actually a lot more people who dislike Haruhi, and perhaps for the reasons you are trying to indicate.

Also, I consider myself a minority, in that I like Haruhi for other reasons. I can wager that a lot who do like the series like it for the (1) Hare Hare Yukai (2) the whole moe thing (3) it seems relatively different and, well, (4) it's the current fad. Essentially, they like since it's popular. I like it, since it had rather mature and complex themes, and yet balanced it out with a morderate amount of what we might call 'popular' elements, like moe.

And, personally, I think I know how you feel. I feel the exact same way about Evangelion, and I think dissing Evangelion, personally, is a whole lot more harder than dissing Haruhi. But hey, don't give up trying to prove your point (and I'll still fight for mine against all the rabid Eva fans)

Well, if what they say about today is true, and since there's no way I can join in, some things I'd add:

I said that I found the series to be rather Mary Sue-ish. I'd retract the statement, on the grounds that it was from another person who amde that statement but still liked it.

And I think it can be justified... which is the reason why Itsuki is in the story. Itsuki is not the comic relief ala Kunikida or the tyoical guyw e all laugh at in eroges and KyoAni adaptations, and Itsuki is not a minor character. Rather, Itsuki is a foil to all that, and that's what makes this series even more interesting.

The novels... well, apparently Haruhi did give up chasing after people, but now there's an anti-Haruhi called Sasaki. I can't wait for that to be animated, that I'm sure. (and I'd love Maaya to do the voice)

Lastly, do I think Haruhi should give up looking for the people she wants ? Well, while I do agree she should consider ordinary people to be just as interesting as 'mystical' people... I suppose chasing after the imaginary helps argue for the belief that there is an imaginary.

Kyon, before the story, had a very skeptical view on life that wouldn't really accommodate fantasy, but Haruhi sort of changed that.

And someday, we might all face that too.

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