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The Hypocrisy of Moe
by The Lost Horizon, 03/14/2010
The Hypocrisy of Moe photo

[Whoa! This Cblog has certainly ignited some passionate debate. Let's promote it to the front page and give all our readers a chance to weigh in on the issue of moe hypocrisy. If you'd like to start a debate of your own, head over to the Cblogs and start writing!]

I present to you the hypocrisy of moe. 

The case? Current Vocal Otaku Fanbase V. Moe

The plaintiff, the Vocal Otaku Fanbase. 

They are claiming that unchecked use of "moe" in the current anime market is destroying said anime market.

The defendant, moe. 

Claims that it has existed since a sentient being first thought that something was "cute" or "charming". 

For the sake of the case we will look at moe in the case of the last 30 years and then within the last decade.

The major point that has been brought up is that everything is just "moe" with the main offender being K-ON. I would first like to present K-ON:



Now K-ON has been attributed with helping cause the downfall of anime into nothing but, and I quote, "Moe Blob". I postulate to you, noble readers, that K-ON contained nothing more then what many shows before K-ON have contained. I present to you, the plaintiff, that you are not seeing the forest for the trees. K-ON is not a moe show, I further theorize that a "moe" show does not exist!

Moe can be attributed to many things, for sake of argument, lets limit it to female characters. Lets look at some moe characters in other media. 



Here we have Rachel from the film Blade Runner. What do you see? I'm sure you are thinking there is nothing moe about her! Think about her character a little more and you will find she meets all the requirements of moe. The biggest of which is tsundere!

We also have, within the same film, yandere in the form of Pris!



Blade Runner has been a very influential force in not just American media, but Japanese media as well. Should we shun Blade Runner for the promotion of moe? 

I know the response, I know it well as it plays in my mind too! "Blade Runner isn't just Rachel and Pris sitting around talking about cake! Not the same!" And you are right. I point them out to show that moe can exist anywhere and with any character. 

The next part that makes up the moe forest is genre, K-ON and Lucky Star are prime examples. They both fall into one of the most misunderstood story telling types, slice of life. This story telling technique was made famous by the American author John Steinbeck. I'm sure some are now groaning, remembering being force to read Of Mice and Men in school. I am sorry for that. 

Great slice of life stories are Azumanga Daioh and Yotsuba. Both of which are major moe offenders. Most of Studio Ghibli's works fall into the slice of life genre as well and are full of moe, Kiki's Delivery Service being a big offender. 

I understand if you are not a fan of "slice of life", it is a tough genre. It tends to lack major plot points and is just a portrait of a period of time. Let's look at shows that aren't "slice of life". We'll start with action, Cowboy Bebop and the moe offender Ed:



Yep, one of the all time favorite shows of the otaku community has been harboring moe this whole time! 

Who else could be spreading subversive moe propaganda? None other than Studio Ghibli!

Hayao Miyazaki!



The list of moe offenders goes on and on! This is a moe conspiracy that has been happening for decades!



To get back to my main point, a moe show does not exist. A story can have moe, but the story isn't about moe. Also Sleeping with Hinako is a gimmick not a show. 

We are finally to the hypocrisy of moe! That some say that they can't stand moe, yet moe is everywhere! Moe is something that only the viewer can attribute to a character or object. Moe can't be forced where the feeling of moe doesn't exist. 

I believe moe is being used as a scapegoat for the Vocal Community. If you are an otaku and have seen more than Dragonball Z you have seen (and more than likely enjoyed) a show with moe. If you have been watching TV or movies, you've seen moe. Moe is everywhere. Let's stop blaming moe for everything, moe is just a feeling! An adjective not a noun! 

Keep watching for moe! It is everywhere! Now I'm going to have some tea and cake, then.talk about how to eat pastries.


Gallery Images:
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Legacy comments:

Irothtin

I have no problem with moe as a concept, but I do have a problem with shows and/or franchises that exist purely to deliver artwork that could be considered moe.
 
EpcotServo

@ Irothtin -Like what? K-On hardly exists as a blank slate of Moe. It's about giving a normal high-school life meaning through Music and Friendship. Lucky Star isn't a delievery system for Moe. It's a comedy about the trivial observations of everyday life. I can't think of even a bad show that simply exists SOLELY to deliver moe. Even if that was the monetary reason it got made, they make a story (good or bad) and idea the show's about that will contain elements that will eventually be moe.

What you say made true would be a Zetsubou-Sensei type sketch of a "Moe Only show". It wouldn't be about even a band or anything. Even a school or maid uniform would be too specific. It would simply be an Animated Gif of a Generic Human Shape (There's too much non-moe value in picking a gender, so it's just kind of a being) sitting in a white room doing nothing.

There's value in every show, identify what it is you do or don't like about it such as story, plot, or action instead of just having a unified complaint of "Too Much Moe"

@ The Lost Horizon - Another case in point: Offender Kyoto Animation! Lucky Star, K-On!, and Haruhi are considered the moe-ist of shows and are primarily identified as examples. Yet, they are all from the same studio. Isn't then, the argument being that they are simply doing what that Studio does best, and in a way this being an isolated incident?


 
Shay Guy

Perhaps the real frustration is an excess of superficial characterization?
 
Ser Knighted Himself

Goddamnit! This is such a moe article.
 
Papasan

HOLY CRAP!!! At work today, I was thinking this VERY SAME THING!!! I was totally going to write a C-Blog about it as soon as I got home!

You beat me to it, and I am glad...

I would never have done something as awesome as this!

Seriously, the style of this really made my evening... Funny Stuff!
 
vedicardi

Everything is moe. That's fact.
 
The Lost Horizon

Wow, it really lifts my spirits to see such a positive response! I expected that I would be flamed as only the internet can do! Thank you everyone!
 
Irothtin

@EpcotServo

I have my thoughts, and you have yours. No need to get so riled up.
 
The Crimson Blade

In a way I can see where both sides come from and perhaps there needs to be a new term for the real culprit. The so far conclusion I am getting is that there are two types of definitions for the term moe and one should not bare the term and should be called something else. There is also evidence out there to cover the other side. The first type covered here, I have never had any problem with it or considered it a burden ever in my life. On that note I guess that's another article for another day.
 
GreatestPan

http://www.lovelyanime.com
 
Stilts

You never actually say why Rachel and Pris are moe other than saying, "She's tsundere/yandere!" You then declare that Ed is moe, but with no explanation. Finally, you say that Studio Ghibli is responsible for spreading moe; and again, you give no explanation for this belief. If you're trying to convince anti-moe members that they're being unreasonable, you need to actually back up your arguments. People who don't already agree with you aren't going to take your claims at face value.

So, if you're trying to actually have a discussion (which I hope you are, as it's one I'd like to engage in), you might want to start by defining what you think moe is. Then I'd at least have some clue what ties K-ON, Blade Runner, Ed and Studio Ghibli together.
 
The Lost Horizon

WOW @Stilts for missing the point! The point cruised at about 40k Feet Gently over your head.

The Hypocrisy of Moe is exactly what you are living. It is only moe if you call it moe. It is something only the viewer can attribute to the subject. Pris is Yandere because of her character traits. Which are as such: Shy, Loving, then murderous. Which happens to be all the traits that are linked to yandare. Then Rachel: Shy, Loving, Quick to Anger, defensive, strong willed, the Tsundere list goes on.

Due to your lack of understanding with relative descriptions (IE Beauty, Ugly, Cute, Sweet, Etc...) of which Moe is one of, please leave your "Media Commentary Club" card at your desk. Thank you.

And the Correct answer to "What is Moe?" is the answer that all of Japan has. Moe is in the eye of the beholder.
 
Stilts

Okay. First off, it WASN'T established that moe is a relative description; and it's important to do that, since that's one of the points of disagreement that anime fans have.

Second, what you're describing sounds exactly like "attraction". In other words, "I like this character because she is [insert character traits here]." If this is the case, however, why even use the term "moe"? Is there some meaning that "moe" has that words like "like" and "love" don't adequately convey?
 
Jon Snyder

1. Horizon, you have a very broad definition of moe, and you assume anybody who does not share that definition is being 'hypocritical'. However, moe is so poorly defined that pretty much every otaku has a different idea of what constitutes it.

2. In the loosest possible sense, moe characters generally have four traits: they are young, innocent, cute and quirky. In essence, a moe character is incredibly adorable... the kind of girl you'd want to hug.

3. Just because a character is tsundere or yandere doesn't automatically make them moe. Princess Leia was definitely tsundere towards Han Solo, but she is most certainly NOT moe... largely because she's too old, self-confident and sexy to fit that archetype.

4. Moe, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. It becomes bad when a show becomes overly reliant on moe gimmicks in lieu of more traditional storytelling elements like character development, plot, comedy, action, etc. For example: Lucky Star was a comedy moe slice-of-life show. However, since the comedy was subpar and the slice-of-life was boring (mainly because the characters had almost no personality), the only aspect that remained was moe. Ergo, unless you're the type to squeal "OMFG CUTE GIRLS DOING CUTE THINGS KAWAII!!!," you'll probably find Lucky Star quite boring.

5. In conclusion... the true hypocrisy here is perpetrated by those who try to defend subpar shows by drawing dubious parallels between their favorite moe series and timeless classics. Just because somebody claims that Seikon no Qwaser is like "Fullmetal Alchemist meets Ikkitousen" doesn't make it true. Instead, try to evaluate each show on it's own merits.

6. Oh, and Blade Runner sucks.
 
vedicardi

That's a probably on the 4th point. I think the comedy stood up very well and the slice of life elements weren't below par with the exception of one or two rare episodes.

But that's because they hit my niche of comedy. I'm one of the people that doesn't care about moe characters, but finds them funny. I'm the second audience that a show like Lucky Star (I believe) is aiming for, and for doing that, I'd say that it's good show. Example: the first episode, the scene where they talk about how to eat whatever that thing was called. One group says it's boring and incredibly stupid. One group finds it incredibly cute and falls in love with the characters. I, on the other hand, find the entire concept of them just talking about food for six minutes, essentially completely wasting the viewer's time, is hilarious. In my mind, if they were setting up that scenario with that intent in mind, to create such a ridiculously stupid and thus funny scenario and drag it out that long, is genius. To an extent, it could possibly considered trolling people that don't like pointless cuteness, and maybe that's what I find funny about it. The longer it dragged on, the harder I laughed.

Of course, it's just as possible that they didn't have that intent in mind at all, but other elements of the show point me to believe that it's very possible it was a primary motive.
 
Colette Bennett

This is great. I agree there are instances where even though I say I hate moe, I like moe. However, here is the key for me: when moe is ALL THERE IS, I cannot get behind moe. On its own, it does not work for me. You mention Ghibli films such as Kiki being moe, and I agree, but there is a STORY there to enjoy. Not just moe. That is the key difference for me as an anime fan. If you can watch a solid show of moe and be amused, good for you, but it's boring to me.
 
Shay Guy

Does this help at all in establishing terminology? WARNING: TL;DR
http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/articles/2009/Galbraith.html
 
Vampt Vo

This article is terrible. It provides opinions with no basis in fact, and absolutely no evidence to back them up. Describe for me, in detail, how Ed's actions in Cowboy Bebop show anything that even remotely resembles the concept that we call moé, and MAYBE I'll start to listen to what you have to say.

Furthermore, any argument about moé that uses the word moé is bound to end in pointless semantics, because moé fans can always say, "BUT HOW CAN YOU CRITICIZE MOÉ WHEN IT'S SUBJECTIVE, HUH? HUH?" How can I criticize it? By not criticizing "moé" at all! What do I care what word some Japanese geeks who have never spoken to a real woman use to describe their cartoon fetishes?

I'll tell you what I hate: young, poorly-written female anime characters who exist almost exclusively for the purpose of being fetish-bait for closet pedophiles who need a way to tell themselves, "I'm not sexually attracted to children, I just like to voyeuristically watch high school girls go about their lives and be cute!"
 
EpcotServo

@ Jon Snyder - That would be a valid point, if it weren't for the FACT that Japanese is an Implied language. And Moe IS a Japanese word. Meaning it does not and most likely will never have a single defined definition. Don't say it's because of the fans or word, that's just how the language works. I feel like this is the new Otaku, where it has an actual very broad meaning, but in America has been claimed as meaning only Anime and Manga. What was a loose definition of something appealing and special, now means anything that looks like K-On to American fans.

2 and 3- I would contend. Age and attainder have nothing to do with Moe. And I'd say Princess Leia has both Spoiled Princess Moe like crazy. 9 out of ten times in Akiba I'm sure if you asked if she was Moe, they'd say yes. Here it would be 0 out of 10. Again, the translation is obscuring the actual implied usage of the word. And therefore should not be used for contention.

4-Then why don't you say the story and comedy were lacking instead of using Moe as a lynchpin? It's a four panel comic, so it's not like they choose to skip over the story and add more moe. You are blaming a forest for trees here on this one. And I'd very much argue that because YOU didn't find it funny or it's characters memorable you should imply with no baisis in fact that all others would find it boring unless they liked moe. It's an extremely hyprocrictical thing to say in a very accepting community. It's like saying that "I didn't like the story or characters, so unless you liked manly stuff you'd find Gurren Lagann to be stupid." It implies that you're better than the rest since everyone else must have some handicap that prevents them from seeing that the show is bad.

@ Colette Bennett - To raise the point again, then why do you blame the "Moe"? Why isn't the blame placed on what you don't like about it, I.E. Story, or Characters? Because they ARE there. They can't replace the story with Moe. They can make a crappy story, that HAS Moe in it. But that's not Moe at fault: It's just a bad story, plot, or character. The word Moe has nothing to do with it unless you love it.


-Argument Aside, I'm glad this article got promoted, I think it's a sound idea to clear the air here on the topic of Moe. I think fans of Moe need to feel welcomed into the larger group, not turned away or laughed at.

 
EpcotServo

@ Vampt Vo - Wow. I'd take issue if it weren't for the end there where you outed yourself as a truly terrible human being who enjoys acting better than everyone else.

I appreciate well thought out arguments and counterpoints to what I argue, but to say that people who enjoy these shows are Pedophiles is generally the kind of hatred and ignorance that, as someone who isn't prone to religion, can only hope a higher-power has reserved a spot for.

That's what is terrible. Not shows or books. , but a genuine intolerance for seeing other people's point of view. It reminds me of the same people who think all Anime fans are just hyper violent teenagers or idiots.

Hate and Intolerance for what other people think or enjoy has never done anyone any good. And I'm not just talking about hobbies.


Peace, Love, & Moe -Servo
 
Marlin Clock

I have to agree with a total lack of explanation for your opinions. You say things without extrapolating yet you set the beginning of this post up as a court case. Well let me tell you something, when lawyers defend cases, they don't just say "well he isn't guilty 'cause look at this other thing" they have to provide detailed evidence in order to prove their clients innocence.

Also:
"WOW @Stilts for missing the point! The point cruised at about 40k Feet Gently over your head."
^That is not a constructive argument. How you treated Stilts was extremely Ad Hominem and totally uncalled for. If you want to make your case, try by arguing reasonably with facts instead of insulting others in order to belittle them.

 
EpcotServo

@ Marlin Clock - I think the whole point of the article was that there are no facts in a case against Moe. And it wasn't meant to be a diatribe, more like a prompt for YOU to question what is and wasn't Moe.
 
gricomet

Honestly, I think the problem is always just bad shows. Take whatever you think is the worst moe offender and I'm confident I can find an anime or multiple in each basic anime genre that is as bad or a worse show. If anything moe has become a popular label by which to express dislike/disdain toward slice-of-life and harem shows, both of which tend to have character(s) than could fall under a definition of moe. This is due to the fact shows in both have almost always been built around "cute" girls. Slice of life has tended to have "cute" girls in the sense of them being adorable or doing cute things, while harem anime can have such elements but differently has the dominant "cute" girl characteristic of some type of "sex appeal." Moe is irrelevant as a genre label because characters that could be viewed as moe always exist in series that are part of traditional anime genre.

 
Gee-Man

So, statement of points without evidence and usage of Ad Hominem to counter criticism? Absolutely wonderful.

First of all, many otaku don't carry the same broad definition of moe that you do. You seem to base moe on simply attraction. However, in my opinion, moe is a set number of character traits. Based on those character traits (including youthful, quirky, and adorable), some characters you mentioned do fall under moe, while many do not. And even then, the characters you justify as moe, you do so with barely any justificiation.

That aside, moe in itself is not a terrible thing. What is terrible is when a show like K-On! exists purely to sell moe to viewers. You mention Studio Ghibli and Cowboy Bebop, but both don't sustain themselves on moe characters (and I argue against Ed being considered moe). They use them as a part of a greater narrative. No Studio Ghibli movie focuses soley on cute characters. They emphasize storytelling and narrative. Watching an entire movie comprised of nothing but moe characters without a legitimate story would be extremely boring.

But that's just my 2 cents. If you like moe and can enjoy it without any real story or plot advancement, then power to you. In the very least, with your lower standards, you're capable of enjoying more shows.
 
Marlin Clock

@Servo
Even if I accept that flimsy excuse, that doesn't excuse his poor manners. Insulting the people you argue with is just tasteless.
 
ittoujuu

Moe is such a broad term that is someone was a photography hobbyist and bought a compact digital camera because they liked its spunky, can-do profile, you could probably call it "camera moe."

The term has been sharpened down to a more accurate point (like a pencil) by its use in referring to specific elements of anime series in the last decade, especially those in the last five years or so, roughly coinciding with what Jon Snyder listed in his second point. It is worth noting that I almost never hear the term "moe" applied to any male character.

What I dislike about the modern moe is that it is used as a crutch, to where it seems to be believed (and often followed through on) that if you fill a series with a cast of cute girls, varied enough for lots of fans to find their "favorite type," you can afford to slack in other areas. It may not be an area one can be cognizantly aware of - how can you tell if the music could have been better than it was, for instance - but even if one has a hard time putting their finger on solid evidence, the existence of shows that seem to have little to offer if you're not sold on the series based on its cute girls doing cute things is working proof.

Cardcaptor Sakura is a series that is undeniably moe. Sakura and Tomoyo-chan are so HNNNNNNNGGGG that they could rival the moe-est of today's moe. But Cardcaptor Sakura (in spite of its episodic nature) had a plot that was interesting and at least worth following/staying awake for. The series is cute, but it doesn't fall back on that for the majority of its appeal. When you look at more of today's stuff - I'll use Kyoto Animation as my scapegoat here - it feels like there's that potential, but that it just doesn't come to the surface, and why it doesn't is a great mystery to me. If you're going to go to the trouble of animating something, why not make it compelling? The only possible reason I can conceive of is that having no big central storyline make it more re-watchable, rather than something viewers can catch on TV, find out how it turns out, and be satisfied with not buying it in DVD. But even that is kind of a shaky reason.

I guess it comes down to me kind of taking it as a given that anime stories should aspire to literary plotting conventions, while these so-called "moe shows" tend to break that down by delivering something that people are obviously buying (in Japan), but not for the same reasons they bought anime in the past.
 
Jon Snyder

@Epcot: Actually, moe IS the lynchpin. Back in the 80s, there were a lot of abysmally bad giant robot anime that rode on the coattails of Gundam and Macross. These series had bad characters, bad storylines, bad pacing... they were merely halfhearted attempts to cash in on the giant robot craze and sell toys. At the end of the day, these shows had nothing going for them except "HEY! GIANT ROBOTS! COOL!"

It's the exact same with a lot of anime today. In the midst of an economic recession, the Japanese studios want shows that will make money. Therefore, they whip up a moe show with little effort put into any aspect of the production other than voice acting and character design. They then market these shows as moeblob-filled cute-fests with lots of figures, character albums and Megami centerfolds. This is little more than a blatant attempt to appeal to the hardcore otaku base, who are willing to spend obscene amounts of money just so they can have all the merchandise related to "their waifu."
 
Mahina

Jon Snyder, you were my hero until point six. I love Blade Runner. It was a visual epoch in Hollywood's depiction of a dystopian future. The score is also great. Just don't watch the theatrical version with Harrison's voiceover narration cheesing everything up.

ON TOPIC...I think other readers have already said that the main offense of moe is not that it exists, but that it is an unfortunately effective marketing ploy that allows otherwise sub-par shows to become merchandising hits. It crowds the field and sucks resources from shows with slightly higher ambition.

It also does not usually reinforce a feminine ideal that I agree with or approve of. I do not want to be defined that way.
 
Stilts

@EpcotServo: "That would be a valid point, if it weren't for the FACT that Japanese is an Implied language. And Moe IS a Japanese word. Meaning it does not and most likely will never have a single defined definition."

Japanese being an "implied language" doesn't mean that the definition of words are vague. In fact, many Japanese words (verbs in particular) can be incredibly specific. What the Japanese language most often implies are subjects (the noun that is acting out the verb or defined by the adjective) and objects (the noun that is acted upon by subject). This is sometimes done because of politeness, or simply because the context of the conversation does not make the extra words necessary.

Also, just because a word is subjective in use does not mean that it can't have a strict definition. Beauty, for example, is defined by Merriam Webster as "the quality or aggregate of qualities in a person or thing that gives pleasure to the senses or pleasurably exalts the mind or spirit". A definition of a subjective adjective is meant to describe the feeling a person is trying to communicate when they say something is beautiful; it is not meant to define what IS beautiful. By asking Lost Horizon to define what he thinks moe means, I wanted to figure out what feelings he attempts to communicate. This is important, because not everyone uses it to communicate the same emotions. Some use it as a synonym for "cute"; others, like Wikipedia and the essay Shay Guy linked to, define it as "a euphoric response to fantasy characters or representations of them".

If we cannot be clear on what we are trying to communicate when we say, "This is moe," this discussion is useless. We will never understand each other.
 
nortonantivirus

Personally I agree that the story can be isolated from any anime as being good or bad. Moe is just a topping.

To sort-of define it without using the word. Its like watching "House". House is a (former) drug addicted doctor. The actual story has (most of the time) nothing to do with House using drugs at all. Therefore, his drug addiction has nothing to do with the story, and can (and has) been taken out of the charicter but the story is just as good.

So, you can take the moe out of the Lucky Star, and still grade it. Some of episode parts have nothing to do with moe at all (especially if you read the 4-koma). I like the actual story of Lucky Star. I would recommend it to anyone who liked Azumanga Daioh, but thats besides the point.

Moe is not a genre at all. It is an adjective to describe a person regardless of Japanese or American. Some people even say males can be moe. Hell, if you wanted, you could say that the "Anime Japanese School Teacher" is moe. I agree with Jon that Princess Leia was definitely tsundere. However she is therefore moe because he is tsundere.

We have not yet clearly define exactly what is "moe", so I personally do not think we can say whether moe has or has not killed anime. Until we do, this debate will never end.

Moe is:
Tsundere
Yandere

Moe is not:
Undefined error: Dividing by 0
 
Mahina

"Some people even say males can be moe."

Usually the males I've seen called moe share the same feminine characteristics outlined by Jon in point two. Moe is like my favorite definition of obscenity: "I know it when I see it." Don't kid yourself. You know a character that was designed to be moe when you see it first trip onto the screen.
 
EpcotServo

@ Marlin Clock - Well to me calling my statements a "Flimsy Excuse" is pretty insulting, but I don't hold it against you, because internet comments are generally sarcastic.

And while I agree that that's no reason to abandon manners- I just think that a wisecrack about missing the point is nothing compared to say, "Vampt Vo's comment calling people who enjoy moe "Closet Pedophiles", I really think that comment is something for you to call into question moreso than Horizon's quip...

@ nortonantivirus - I agree, well said!


 
Marlin Clock

Well, it was more against your argument than against your person. If I called you names then that's Ad Hominem. On retrospect, I was a bit harsh in that post, but it wasn't really insulting you directly. That's the difference between that and what Horizon did.

Also, I expect the author of the topic at hand to have some tact when arguing.
 
Firefly

The problem is not moe, the problem NEVER was moe. The true problem is the use of moe; when it is used in substitution of plot and story. So lets not get trapped in the whole "moe must == this" BS. I watched Lucky Star, and yes the story and comedy was sub par. When I finished it I seriously thought to my self "this wasn't worth my time". And in the middle of K-on I saw the same thing happening and said to myself "I'm not doing this again" and quit that shit. It's when a show that's suppose to be funny or entertaining lacks in those said departments and thusly will try to make up for it by being "moe", that is when it becomes a "moe blob". Really if you want to watch a bunch of people sitting around playing video games and shooting the shit, you should join me and my friends. I'm sure you would have more fun too.
 


That is quite an amusing article, and I agree mostly. Moe is just a factor, a trope. Its been turned into a commodity recently, but I think that's because of a lack of any other strong popular themes in anime at the moment. Futuristic mechanicals are no longer the attention grabbers they were...

 
Heartless141

OBJECTION!
Argument:
moe show does exist.
Explanation:
it back itself up with humor and some other stuffs like music(k-on, macross F movie, etc) to distract one's attention from stuffs that it lacks like plot line, stupid conversation and such.
you might take it as a Comedy shows, i don't. because obviously, the comedic factor take up just a larger portion of the minorities.

you sir, are mistaking overall genre with detailed genres.

Evidence:
Bleach, is a battle show
Bleach, can also be described with ecchi, supernatural, samurai, and comedy.

but however you look at it, it's a battle show.

defendant is
G.U.I.L.T.Y.

 
DKnight

K-ON was very relaxing and charming, and Lucky Star was chock full of super obscure references perfect for a high power level person like me. Both shows have unique and very well designed characters, and the shows overall are funny and upbeat. It's a mistake to use these two shows to attack "moe". It just demonstrates that any genre can be worth it if it has enough quality, just like when you though you grew out of shonen and then read One Piece.
Moe genre doesn't exists anyway, it's just that these shows focus a lot on the moe characteristics of its characters, and choose an unobtrusive genre like slice of life to aid this effect.
Anyway, if you don't like these kind of shows, don't watch them.
 
Vampt Vo

@EpcotServo: "[...] to say that people who enjoy these shows are Pedophiles [...]"

Hey man, if you want to extrapolate on what I said and make assumptions about my opinions, go right ahead, but I definitely didn't call you a pedophile. What I DID say was that certain shows — I avoided the term "moé" — are created (for the most part) to appeal to older men who like to watch cute girls do cute things, which sure sounds like closet pedophilia to me.

However, before you get your panties in a bunch, notice that I am talking about *target demographics*, not the actual demographics that end up watching these shows. Astro Boy and One Piece are both made for children, but I am an adult and I read both of them. Does that make me a child? With The Light: Raising an Autistic Child is made for adult women, so does reading it make me a woman?
 
The Lost Horizon

THE FLAMES! IT BURNS!

No really, I appreciate the Article promotion. I understand everyone's points. The biggest of which is that I didn't go into a enough detail. Part of that was by design, I had hoped to show that moe can be in any show. Also to help show that moe isn't (in my opinion) more than what the viewer makes it. I still believe that moe can be seen everywhere.

When I write the Moe Thesis, I promise to cite my sources. Everyone's input on this article, I wrote spur of the moment, has provided excellent feedback.

To those that I may have slighted, my apologies.

To Mr. Snyder, Blade Runner does not suck and if it did Ghost in the Shell would suck by association.

 
king3vbo

I applaud you good sir
 
Heero Yuy

I'm going to put aside the argument of whether moe is "good or bad" for a moment in favor of something that I think is a more important underlying issue for which this argument is a result of: Is moe really so much a problem?

Every season there are always going to be shows that some of us don't like, sure, and I understand a lot of the ones coming out lately are what some of you would call "moe blob" shows, however, the anime studios will always lean towards either whatever gets them the largest audience and/or whatever makes them the most money. In both cases then it's the result of the audience's influence as to what they produce, so instead of complaining how about you get out there and vote with your wallets?

And it's not like moe in of itself is bad - Bakemonogatari had tons of moe yet was still incredibly good [aggressive comment](and if you think Bakemonogatari was a crappy show then you seriously need to get your brain scanned.)[/aggressive comment]
 
Rank57

Moe is like wasabi: it's good in tiny little bit portions WITH main dishes, but eat a bigger portion of wasabi and try to live to tell the tale...
 
Violet Gray

Uh, I won't even bother reading all the comments so sorry if i'm reiterating statements.
Too much of anything can be bad. The reasoning behind this article is so flawed i can't even starts.
Since we're talking about cake: sugar can be found in a multitudes of cakes that can be different and awesomely delicious. Trying to cook using just sugar won't get you very far. Eat just sugar and you won't be able to stand it or taste it.
Ed is cute compared to the other characters in CB. Is Ed moe when put up next to the characters of K-ON?
Can you have a real anime based solely on "cute"? Yes you can, but do expect people to start getting sick from being overfed the same thing.
We're not sick of cute things but the lack of normal, varied, complex characters and situations to go along with that.

 
Merius

Personally, I think that although creators can create a character within a show that they hope to inspire the feelings and fandom of moe, but that moe is simply in the eye of the beholder. I would say that not all tsundere are created equal, nor have I ever once watched a show were I felt that show's popularity was staked solely on those character's moe-ness.
 
Tuskus

How can we have a discussion about moe if we can't even agree on WHAT MOE IS? Is it a genre? A character archetype? A feeling?
 
EpcotServo

@ Vampt Vo- Absolutely, there's no grounds for saying reading Manga meant for kids makes you a child, or say, watching Ouran Host Club makes you a girl. Which is why this comment:

"anime characters who exist almost exclusively for the purpose of being fetish-bait for closet pedophiles who need a way to tell themselves, "I'm not sexually attracted to children, I just like to voyeuristically watch high school girls go about their lives and be cute!""

is EXACTLY the kind of thing as above. I can't think of a way to NOT read that as Slice of Life must be designed for creeps. Saying that people who aren't mentally dangerous can also enjoy it doesn't make up for claiming it's made for that purpose in the first place. It's not at all like saying "Oh, the Target audience is kids." This is more serious and fundamentally wrong, like saying "Oh, the Target audience for Death Note are Homicidal Egomaniacs with God-Complexes." or that "The Target Audience for Grand Theft Auto must clearly be Criminals, Murderers, Gangs, and Thugs."

I'm sorry if I came across as harsh or angry- But the comment as originally stated is a something that left uncommented on would leave us in a dangerous place. I mean who's to say when someone decides that what you like is designed for something else fundamentally wrong? Like "Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei is designed almost exclusively for Manically Depressed people with a Suicide Tendency" or "Evangelion is just a flimsy story made to deliver an appealing show to people with scarred and unstable childhood memories and must have had a violent and abusive time as a teenager to enjoy these characters."

It's one skip and a jump to that by keeping silent over that comment. Again, I apologize.

@ Merius- This comment I agree with so much, I must quote it sums up totally how I feel.

"Personally, I think that although creators can create a character within a show that they hope to inspire the feelings and fandom of moe, but that moe is simply in the eye of the beholder. I would say that not all tsundere are created equal, nor have I ever once watched a show were I felt that show's popularity was staked solely on those character's moe-ness."

Bravo!

 
EpcotServo

Oh and I just want to add that someday I hope that we find it- The Moe Connection: The Lovers, The Dreamers, and Me...Allll of ussss undeerrr it's spellll...I knowww that it's probably magiiccccc...
 
nortonantivirus

@EpcotServo
I think most people just ignored him. It's not like we get many people who directly attack all of us personally. After glancing at his last 20 posts, I don't understand why he posted hit. He likes "God Knows." The only way I would think that an american would know that song if he watched Haruhi. So why he would attack everyone who likes Moé? Oh well, bring on the Ban Hammer!
 
MasterPete

OBJECTION!

moe is a trope! If a show have that trope in large quantity you can certainly call it "trope-name" show. (DBZ has power-up... it's a Power-up show - among other things)

moe is a character traits, and yes you can have a whole bunch of them in the same show. It would be called "moe-show". It wouldn't necessarily be bad. (Remember, trope's not all bad.)

Still, moe's character traits usually involve minor in some attractive ways. It's not evil but it's first impression does fall on the bad side of the general public's mentality. (like, Black-is-not-evil trope)

What's bad is the EXCESS of moe level in shows made today. It's prominent to the point that show creator have to take this into account when making a new show. Sadly, unlike some mainstreem trope, moe can be seen as foreign and weird from the general public. And when you start catering for your own fan base which can only get smaller (people do "grow out") and made shows that does not have general public appeal (where there's new blood), then you are destroying the industry. Think American comic industry.

That's my 2 cents anyway.
 
Ivan M.

Heero, I believe it's been sufficiently established that the audience who's supplying the bulk of the profits off all this moe dreck are the hardcore Japanese otaku -- not people in this discussion who've been raising their objections to the overuse of moe in contemporary anime. If what you mean by your comment is that certain individuals here should begin PURCHASING more anime in general, instead of pirating it, then I agree.

And EpcotServo, while I applaud your tireless crusade to point out the broader Japanese cultural meaning of moe and what you see as a distortion of the term (as it relates to this month's hot topic on Japanator), I don't think your overall argument makes any real difference. Popular usage changes language and adds to meanings all the time in human history. We here in the West have come to define moe as "cute girls doing cute things." That's how I use the term as well, in spite of my awareness of its originally larger scope back in Japan. There's nothing you can do about it. Give up.

ONE MORE THING: Elfen Lied. Moe? Discuss.
 
EpcotServo

@ Ivan M. - Give up? It's a vital conversation of our hobby, I don't except to win hearts and minds, just fight for what I believe. Opinions are diverse and meant to be shared. Give up? OUR HEARTS MUST SPIN ON, LIKE DRILLS! Is there any alternative? No! ROW ROW, FIGHT DA POWER! ^^

And if we are raising shows for debate: Welcome to the NHK is a very moe show that's fantastic.

 
ShaggyTheOnly

In the words of George Wallace’s if he ever would have been a otaku: “moe today … moe tomorrow … moe forever.
 
Parasepsis-Ezza

@Ivan M:
Elfen Lied used moe as a contrast to the gore to make it all the more severe. It's not just a person getting all four limbs ripped in twain, it's a sweet little moe girl with cat-horns. Chilling.
 
Vampt Vo

@EpcotServo: "It's not at all like saying 'Oh, the Target audience is kids.' This is more serious and fundamentally wrong, like saying 'Oh, the Target audience for Death Note are Homicidal Egomaniacs with God-Complexes.' or that 'The Target Audience for Grand Theft Auto must clearly be Criminals, Murderers, Gangs, and Thugs.'"

Yessir, it is EXACTLY like saying that the target audience is kids. Just because I'm saying that the show is aimed at a group looked down upon by most societies doesn't make my statement untrue. Most anime nowadays is aimed at otaku, a group *gasp* that is looked down upon in Japanese society. That doesn't mean that these shows aren't made for these people. Oh, and if my assessment of target audience is wrong, what do YOU think is a more correct assessment?

Here's another good thing to remember: I never said "slice-of-life" or "moé" in my comment. I am talking about a very specific kind of show that I think is aimed at a very specific group. Slice of life can be creepy if it comes across as voyeuristic rather than narrative, and there are some shows that just give me that vibe.

By the way, I'm not saying that the target audience is the same thing as the characters, as you are suggesting. If I were, then One Piece would be made for pirates, not children. Or, y'know, K-ON! would be made for high school girls.

@nortonantivirus: "It's not like we get many people who directly attack all of us personally."

Maybe, just MAYBE, you could realize: that is why I used such harsh language! Living in a walled-in world where everybody agrees with you isn't a great way to start a meaningful discussion. I'm glad my comments made you angry. Now rebut with something other than ignoring them and talking about my taste in music. Such a response is not only immature, but irresponsible to the greater anime discourse.

And yes, I like God Knows. It's a fun song with a great guitar part that serves as one of the highlights of an incredibly overrated (but relatively good) show. If you're so surprised that a "moé-hater" has laid eyes on Haruhi, chew on this: If I hadn't watched any moé shows, how in the world could I possibly criticize them?
 
Fell

IMHO, what "moe" once meant is now subsumed into what we also, lately, mean by "fetish."

"I have a thing for (insert stereotype common to anime)." == "I'm moe for ()"

Catgirls Primrichgirl, clutzygirl, robotgirl, yankeegirl, etc. etc. etc. yawn.

So yes, Kiki (our clumsy still-learning witch) and Ayukawa Madoka (our tsundere yankee-girl angsty musician goddess) may qualify as having moe attributes. ...which is the same as saying they were made to be likable.

What makes 'moe' an epithet is when it's calculated, commercial, and empty.

It's okay to have characters that meet some stereotypes. It's NOT okay to do your character design and development by saying "Okay, what stereotype is this character?"

The reason we complain about moe is when that's 100% of the character's design. (I'm watching Popotan, lately. >_
 


  

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