One thing we all like to forget is that PEOPLE WHO PIRATE THINGS DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR THEM. If we didn't have scanlations everyone who doesn't want to pay for manga would just read manga from the library or at a bookstore.

then why more and more companies license new manga if the industry is already 'ruined' by scanlations?

I call BS on all pirates can't afford it. Many can and just won't. Reading at the library means you are reading a copy paid for to be read there, and reading at the bookstore is a luxury the bookstore grants for it's product.

His "You aren't the industry" is a big cornerstone in how I feel about it when other people say it doesn't hurt. They are just saying it, they don't actually KNOW that it doesn't hurt them.

Just because you believe cheating on your girlfriend doesn't hurt her, doesn't make it true.

But people will still trot out the idea that they know everything about everything, and that some fact they heard somewhere on the internet (probably from another jackass that has no idea what he is talking about) is the truth, since it fits what they WANT to be true.

Piracy Hurts. Scanlations, for example, hurt in that you have the cutting edge group of people, that you would hope to sell to, able to download it for free. And they will think it's "OK" since it isn't licensed. Are you going to want to buy something they already read if it wasn't that interesting? Is the focus group the only group of people that would like it? (It's too narrow a focus group to be indicative of how it will do, and is not a random sampling, further diluting it's value)

@OtakuMon

Welcome to the middle ground. Where something can hurt an industry, but the industry can still grow despite being hurt by something.

Banks still make money, even though they get robbed
Children still grow up, even though they tend to get booboos.
And more people will end up buying manga since the world population is still going up, even though many people will end up downloading it to read free instead of paying for it.

So now it's the consumer's fault that the manga industry is suffering.

Just what part of that makes sense? Whenever the 'industry' comes to trouble, they're the first to blame piracy for their woes, not ever considering that perhaps the industry itself is unsustainable in it's current condition. Maybe there are too many titles being licensed, titles that aren't performing well because of poor selection? Maybe it's the fact that manga is such a substitutable consumption product, especially when anime of the same manga gets licensed too? The decline of anime/manga markets isn't something that's unique to the America's, it had it's origins in Japan. Think of it as jet-lag that the market is suffering from.

I hate it when proponents of the manga industry flaunt their vast inner knowledge about the production costs of manga, but never write about the possibility that their assumptions about their market might be wrong. It's folly to think that piracy doesn't exist on the internet, and blaming scanalators for all their problems instead of adapting their business model to suit their competitive environment is just stupid.

News flash: the industry doesn't have the power to change the market environment, only consumers en masse do. Hateful messages that are written isn't going to make people more sympathetic to your cause, especially since the vast majority of the ones reading your message are paying customers in the first place. If the industry can't remain competitive through the times and can do nothing more than bitch about their problems, then it just needs to shut down and pack up. That's what competition is, if you're not fit enough to survive, then you die.

@fission2
See and that's the cry of the pirate. As soon as someone in the "Industry" says anything bad about Piracy its "they are suffering at the hands of piracy and all our problems are caused by it" as opposed to just saying it fucking sucks.

But wait it gets better, he doesn't know about Piracy when THATS WHAT THE QUOTE IS ABOUT.

By reading scanlations, I am a pirate. Simple truth. I don't say it with pride of any sort, but I can't say that I'll just stop immediately. I read at least a few manga that aren't licensed in the US, so I guess that's my flimsy excuse.

Like Karen said, I can't think about it too hard without just drawing a blank. Piracy exists, I participate. I don't know what else to say on the subject.

@fission2: In fairness, Forbes totally takes Japanese publishers to task for not providing decent, legal alternatives to scanlations for a global audience, so his thoughts on the matter are not one-sided. I just feel that when you have people who are providing a service at basically a professional level, and doing it better and faster than the people who are ostensibly being paid to do it, the industry/not industry dynamic seems to be kind of arbitrary- not in a moral sense, but in the sense of "who are really the movers and shakers here."

Example from anime: Last time I checked, the latest episode of Bakatest was not available in legal, streaming format from FUNimation. It is however available in other forms. If I don't want to be a pirate but I want to get my Annotated Anime recaps done on time, what do I do? Download it and be an evil pirate? Or possibly miss the recap because waiting for FUNi to make it available on their service is the 'right' thing to do? The way the system is currently set up, it seems like BOTH options are wrong.

@Irothtin
Oh hey, yeah let me clear that up.

I'm against pirates being all "Hey I don't matter, I won't buy it anyways, so it doesn't hurt" neglecting the overall community they will foster that doesn't all fit into the same little hole.

Most people aren't like that though, such as you, and I am not all angry about that.

so when manga like berserk is grossly overpriced here and nobody's buying it's all the fault of scanlation. i mean after all manga companies are faultless and surely everything they do is right. we should all support whatever they're doing without questioning anything.

I read the entire article on MangaBlog, thanks for that Karen.

Anyway, I myself have read a few scanlations, in fact it's how I read everything past volume 2 of 20th Century Boys. I don't read scanlations anymore though but my cause isn't that noble. I do like owning my manga in a physical form and supporting the creator but my main reason for not reading scanaltions is time. If I started reading scanlations I wouldn't stop, I know this because it's what I did with 20th Century Boys. It took two days to read 22 volumes (that's including 21st Century Boys).

I do however feel I've paid my dues back for those scanlations I've read. I own around 200 volumes of manga and don't plan to stop buying anytime soon.

Another thing I find interesting is that a lot of people think the official translations from Viz, Yen Press, and Tokyopop are crap. I don't really get this. Sure I've read a few bad ones (Bakune Young, Gundam Lost War Chronicles, and Reiko the Zombie Shop) but they weren't THAT bad. I understood what was being said even if it wasn't crystal clear.

I can understand how it might make one upset. They've spent money on this product that people were paid to translate and it's not the best. But if they, or me, want a physical copy they can read in English it's really their only option. Overall though out of my 200+ volumes of manga only a FEW haven't had that great of translations.

And as for manga being over priced it is if you buy it in a bookstore. If you know where to shop online it's not that bad. If you can't shop online then you have a few options. You can pay the asking price at the store, read it at the store, or read scanlations. If you read scanlations just expect to be called out on it because it is wrong no matter how much the publisher charges.

What is a manga consumer? Nothing but a miserable pile of secrets. But enough talk, have at you!

typically I look up whats on amazon first before I get into a new manga. I want it complete. Hokuto no Ken isn't fully available here? scanlations. Jojo only starts at volume 3? scanlations. something like Devilman or anything obscure? scanlations. otherwise I buy, or test the waters and read the first volume or something and see if I like it.

Wow what a long article but I managed to tough it out and read the whole thing. He had some good points unfortunately in my opinion puts too much blame on scanlations and the manga fans/consumers.

Take me for instance I spent tons of money on manga over the years ever since tokyo pop first hit the scene till today. I have over 100 US english version books and would gladly buy more but the japanese companies that own the rights to whatever title and even worse the US industry releasing them here are doing a horrible job.

I now own over 20 plus japanese version manga's because of how bad it's gotten and the fact I've been studying japanese for so many years now, that even if I don't know it fluently yet I still can read most of it, if now all of it as long as it's a manga etc.

Yes I read tons of scanlations as well but for most of them I also buy the official book when released, not to support the industry but because I admire the artwork. I like to have a physical book in my hands that I can read anytime and because part of the fun is collecting my favorite series. So I am putting money into these idiots pockets I'm no mooch like the author was calling people like me.

One thing that is certain, people I'll list some examples won't buy for many reasons. One friend I'll call Dave is one cheap bastard. No matter how cheap you sale a manga for he will never buy one unless you give it to him free so unless you can magically kill scanlations or illegal scans he would just do something else. He is never going to be future customer and too many people are just like him. Another friend of mine J is living paycheck to paycheck, not to put him down he is a nice guy but he's poor. When times were better he was buying the US versions and stopped reading scanlations for Berserk and a few other titles but now he just can't do that anymore. He's not evil.

Now their is me and what gripes I have with the industry a well paying, dedicated customer and manga lover.

Their is many titles I would gladly buy right now if they were licensed but with the way things are they will never or haven't been licensed. How can I buy your book if it's not available? So what harm does a scanlation do you? Another problem is the release dates of licensed manga are ridiculous. Two to four months depending on the title and unreasonable dates of several years. After seeing the english version on the shelf the cover art was appealed to what I like. So I read some scanlation and raws and wanted to buy them all. But only the first 2 volumes are out. It is released every 4 months over here. Their is 7 books in japan as of right now I might as well buy the imports but not everyone can do that.

Or even worse ADV release of Gunslinger Girl it took two and a half years for volume 2 to come out from the date of volume 1. And about half that time for book 4 and so on. Plus the future volumes are dead in the water from them.

What leads to another problem we have all these US companies going belly up or MIA. Take one title I love Kage Kara Mamoru from Dr. Master I bought the first 3 books day of release. Then waited over 1 year for the volume 4 official copy, I sent many emails and tried to get in touch with them short of driving to their home office which is 20 miles away. So I bought the imports and not only are they better quality books they were even cheaper.

It seems they want to piss people like me off who spend money on their product then turn around and accuse me their financial woes.

Without scanlations I would never discover new material I want to buy. I don't buy a movie, anime, or manga by just looking at the cover or back. I preview the whole thing first by buying a movie ticket, renting it, or downloading it if I like I'll buy a copy of whatever media it is.

I don't know if buying digital copies of the future is the way of the future all I know personally I would never do that. I want a paper book in my hands that will last the test of time and not have to worry about losing it if my hard drive crashed. Oh I do have several back up drives but not everyone is as prepared.

So to conclude this long post. Here are few things the industry needs to do:
They need to really push up release dates asap while it's fresh and popular if they sit on it too long people will lose interest and move on. Come on people I bought all 8 books of Black Lagoon you think I'd buy number 9 as well even though that would mean catching up to the japanese release.

Find a way to promote and or move more copies to lower the price. People want to buy your book but us working stiffs can't buy every single series we read or like when their is so many to choose from.

License the stuff people want or that will do well here state side. I shouldn't have to buy the japanese versions of Gunslinger Girl or High School of the Dead. Guns, hot chicks, violence, and great artwork it's a no brainer.

They really need to have people telling them and or researching what to license asap. I'm looking at you Gantz. You just took too dam long to make it over here so if I buy you I'll do it when ever I feel like it.

Make sure to seriously have Barnes and Noble and other book super stores make it so that kids, teenager, or who ever can't treat the manga section like a library. I see them all the time with a stack of books reading for free without being yelled at or kicked out. I shouldn't have to step over and even worse the last time I ever bought a manga at such a place have to get a employee to rip it out of their crummy little hands because guess what I wanted to actually buy it the only copy they had. If not shrink wrap them all and I guarantee this problem will go away. Oh and I don't want the copy that has been man handled to death with bent pages and stuff thank you very much.

And last because I just can't think of anything more to bitch about and it's not a really big problem is don't censor and even more unacceptable americanize or I like call it bastardize the translations. Most fans I know want it just the way it's in japan we are big kids now we don't need to be told this how it should be. If it has nudity or something graphic we already now about it or we won't make a stink about it. As for the translations they need to be as original as possible. Battle Royale was so much better in japanese than all that american slang gangta rap crap. Or Tenjou Tenge I knew it had tons of boobies that's what made it entertaining and guess what I've seen many in real life and I didn't die so why the need to protect my eyes?

I don't know, their is just so much blame to go around but I would really like to see some of these companies willing to listen and embrace new ideas and try new things. And what I also would like for them to get some people on their pay roll that know the product more versus I have a degree in something so I know better than the consumer.

If their was no more scanlations I can assure you I'd probably stop reading manga altogether since it's easier to find than raw versions.

That was an interesting article; thanks for bringing it to my attention.

It feels like if he was going solely after one group, I would balk at him being overly harsh, but since he's taking all groups to task, it seems more even-handed, since at least the shortcomings of all groups are being recognized.

The most interesting part of the article, to me, was his discussion of "the conversation," which is a topic I seldom see discussed, but which has a big impact, because "the conversation" is what grew up around anime in the U.S. due to its rise alongside the internet really hitting its stride in households (and as a delivery medium for additional content). I love being part of "the conversation." It's something that went hand-in-hand with my maturation as a fan of manga and anime. It's realy enjoyable to talk to people with interesting things to say about things you share an interest in, who like them as much as you do. Because of "the conversation," we're connected as fans - we have websites like Japanator and ANN to enjoy, we have comprehensive lists about the series that are premiering each season and a little about what they're about, and basically, have a powerful network of resources beneath us all that bolsters our reach and knowledge as fans.

However, from a sales perspective, "the conversation" is difficult to approach, because by the time you release a complete product, you're selling it to a consumer who already has an opinion on it - the act of "discovery" is lost. There was an interview a few months ago with a top guy from Square-Enix's manga division, in which the differences in selling manga in Japan compared to abroad was discussed. A couple major interesting points that came up were the fact that the average Japanese young person is within fairly easy biking distance of at least three bookstores, whereas in America, a bookstore may be something a target audience would only visit once a week - maybe on the weekend, with their parents. Also important is the fact that manga tankoubons are like $4-6 apiece, and kids in Japan - who apparently get more regular allowances from parents - find them more affordable, and have a more constant source of at least a bit of cash with which to buy them. Additionally, the penetration of manga compilation magazines is much greater in Japan, and when a buyer finishes one issues, they can hand it around to all their friends, so over a period of time, a Japanese reader gets the chance to check out many series at a much lower overhead cost - the American equivalent of which is to sit in a bookstore and read a volume of a series you're interested in to see if it's something you'd be interested in picking up. These are all interesting points, in addition to the major issue that a lot of manga's target market is also computer-savvy enough to read titles online. Really, perhaps the biggest issue here, as I see it, is that in the U.S. (can't speak for other countries), manga is more expensive than in Japan, and the target market it is being sold to has access to less spending money and fewer purchasing channels than their Japanese counterparts.

I was surprised by the idea of thinking of online manga delivery in terms of F2P online games - I'd never considered that, but for monetizing a readership without charging them much (or at all), it actually seems kind of viable, if they can get in some unobtrusive online adverts on the page, or some Google ad metrics. And of course, can't discount the coolness of selling appealing merchandise relevant to the series being read.

My manga readership is down right now, compared to the past couple years, and I've got like 2-3 series sitting at home that I've bought but not yet read. I know I read stuff online that I haven't paid for - and also some non-notable stuff that will probably never see the light of day outside Japan. I can't absolve myself of being a guilty party in this, but as I apportion my entertainment budget, I've been trying to support anime and manga I've enjoyed, and I think that in this case, doing what one can do is better than doing nothing at all.

"What is a manga consumer?"
A miserable little pile of secrets!

@ittoujuu: Went zooming right past the point I was going to make, so I guess you probably don't read many webcomics :P

@boblemoche: Oh, so close, but Brad Rice beat you to the punch.

Anyway, exactly like ittoujuu said, comparing manga to webcomics would be a really interesting way of looking at things. The average "webcomic reader" - someone who really likes webcomics, has a giant pile of them they read on a regular basis, etc. - knows a lot more about the "industry" than the average manga fan. People who like webcomics will buy the book, the shirts, the stuffed toys. Not unlike the real hardcore otaku, but a lot of that stuff doesn't really make its way to North America as easily because it's harder to get. You want a witty webcomic t-shirt? You go to the online store, you load up on six shirts. You want a sweet manga t-shirt? You go to a convention or trawl around the internet trying to find a reseller.

On the other hand, you have the people who just read the comic and move on, who will never buy anything, and never really think about the person creating the comic. Not unlike people who read scanlations, their reasons for not paying are varied and way too complex to ever generalize. Aside from ads, these people don't generate anything other than pageviews, or sometimes a helpful opinion on a forum. Usually someone willing to contribute something to the community of a webcomic will want to pay for something.

I've come to a bit of an impasse myself with buying things from webcomics, because frankly I already own way too many t-shirts. Hoodies are something I could get invest in a bit more (Canada is like that), but there aren't too many of those. I buy the books of webcomics, I read them, pass them around to friends who aren't into webcomics as much, etc. etc. But now I'm moving, and I don't have the space to take dozens of comic books with me, so I'm donating them all to my local high school library for the greater good. But I haven't bought a single book since I knew I was going to move.

The last time I bought manga, though, would be... Before I got tired of waiting for new volumes to come out, or maybe when my allowance couldn't keep up with my manga habits. I went to scanlations at first, but they weren't as readily available then, and so eventually I stopped reading manga completely. I've donated the few volumes of manga I had, too, but I never got past the first few volumes of a series before losing interest or finding it more convenient to read them online. My local bookstores simply do not carry the manga I want to read. The comic book shops are willing to order things in, but at that point I may as well just buy them online myself. The only time I can buy manga I want is when I go on a trip to a bigger city, and that doesn't happen nearly often enough to make me a consumer of manga.

"WHAT IS A MANga consumer?"

A miserable little pile of secrets?

I read scans because I cannot decipher Moon Runes. I buy manga when it's in a language I am fluent with. Therefore, I am.

Here's something I want to know: Is it possible for fansubbers/scanlation writers to get recruited for legitimate translating work at the manga companies? If not, it seems a tremendous waste of talent. And if so, it's valuable experience and practice they can use.

As for me, I watch fansubs only when the licensed release isn't coming out fast enough. I want to watch or read a whole series all in a row, at one time. Two examples: Moribito and Spice and Wolf. I Bought the available DVDs of both of them, but then wanted to see the rest. I Downloaded them.

For me, it's the huge delay in licensing and dubbing that make commercially-available manga and anime not worth it. It used to be about a three-year delay with everything's Western release, though it's gotten a lot better.

To answer his question, manga consumers are a varied, tech savvy bunch of fans.

My personal experiences with scans, are like those of many, where a series is sampled. When I find something that I like, I'm more likely to want it for my collection, so it can be enjoyed further and shared with friends etc.

Manga/comics scans are similar to passive content, that can be found free online, being a double edged sword. Publishers will cry foul at the presence of this material online, making the 'shot in the dark' argument that they'll go out of business, and there's some truth in that, thus sales are needed. However, the other truth is that scans also drive potential fan sales, as well as being a 'free berometer of market taste'. The former truth is always flagged as the only truth, and the latter always disregarded and buried. Us as fans can see both sides, which is why many of us, even if we partake in fansubs or scans, will happily support our preview love, with legal tangible sales, down the line.

The loitering manga reader dilemma, is a common thing in some U.S stores, but I guess is tolerated because it helps drive sales. This brings me back to manga scans, where I kind of consider them to be very much like borrowing books from a library, except online. Let me elaborate.

Libraries are free to join (at least in the U.K anyway), but can also sell new books, besides lending out old ones. Some will visit libraries, and read to their hearts content, never joining or borrowing a book, while other will do the opposite. Despite this, libraries never try to force everyone to join their club, in order to sample the content within. They were once the seat of every civilisations acquired knowledge, long before the internet. Now the internet does the same, but in ones and zeros (and no supreme Tron government code), over the physical. The consumption of much media online is more like legions of library visits, than the cut throat thieving of content, many in the established news media make it out to be. Remember, sales are presumed and speculated to be lost, not proven, and this can be twisted anyway the possessor wills. What is downplayed is when fans do support what they love in sales, to keep the status quo. With the anime/manga industry, its niche nature plays into the favour of fans, and while questioned is tolerated, since all of what happens feeds the circle of life. By all means though, if there's something you have sampled and love, put some money behind it, as its always the best way, to get more made and in front of you.

One of the best things about scans, that will always keep me coming back, is rare and obscure manga classics. I'm a big fan of Kaoru Shintani's Area 88 manga, after many years playing UN Squadron on my SNES as a kid. The manga was printied in english comics form by Eclipse, then later by Viz in their now dead Animerica magazine. As I recall, Viz printed one GN volume in english and the series never returned after that. While I'd love for Viz to reprinted the whole run in english (especially with their classic line doing okay), scans have given me a fix of this manga again. Even with the ADV anime series out there, you still don't get a complete story (the ultimate hiatus annoyance).

As for my free scan to proper sales, my latest manga for such treatment are Togari, King of Thorns, Monster, Pluto and Broken Blade, all of which I sample read online first. (For my fansub anime, its Persona Trinity Soul, on my buy list). If my reading scans helped spread these titles to a wider audience, later through a publisher, that's surely a good thing, right? I can confidently say that scans have made me invest in more product, not less. More fans should have this kind of 'fan code' mentality, and keep feeding the circle.

All I have to say is wow, that was a great article, and anyone who even remotely reads manga should give that one a read.

@GekigaViking:

Holy crap?! You know what UN Squadron was based on? That game is so freaking hard. I used to have the cartridge, but now just have it emulated.

Now I have all that SNES musical goodness stuck in my head.

There are some things scanlations can give you like titles that won't see the light of day in your country for a long time (Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou is a good example) and some things only licensed manga can give you (quality control, although questionable in some companies; a hard copy of the titles you like, etc).

I access both but buy manga as long as my pockets let me, even if that means getting cheap on food.

Gekigaviking: "I can confidently say that scans have made me invest in more product, not less"

My thoughts exactly, although licensed manga keeps on surprising me with titles I haven't seen in scanlations, too (Inubaka in my case).

I am so sick of this argument. People in the industry are just former scanlators/fansubbers trying to make their own buck off of someone else's work. "Well, I used to do this for fun, but now I'm going to screw the consumer, like I used to be screwed back in the day."

I'm not saying scanlating and fansubbing are right or wrong. I don't f'ing give a damn.

Personally, the only way I think anyone can make any of this right is to start a mangaka/animator trust fund, because THOSE are the people getting screwed. They live a damned hard life, and I don't think supposed increased profits from the death of fan translation is going to trickle down to them.

I am an avid, avid consumer. I have over 1000 english manga volumes and I will not stop anytime soon. I enjoy owning the physical book much more than reading a possibly poorly translated scanlation online.

Anyway.

One thing that the manga industry here in the states is doing that is AGAINST their own favor, is dropping series before completion. I cannot begin to describe how frustrated it has me. I have countless series that are incomplete because the publisher has dropped the title, due to lack of popularity, funds, etc.
I know the industry suffers, but leaving a series incomplete only causes us, the consumer, to lack faith in our purchasing ability for these series.
I love buying obscure, quirky titles, but if it's not a mainstream manga series, I have the worry of not being able to own it in its entirety. And this saddens me.
It's a constant, vicious circle, I suppose.

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